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  • Piya Tan
    Dear Pali friends, Sorry for the blank emails, some Netscape problem. Here is the mail: any comments from anyone? Sukhi. P. ... Subject: Anapanasati Sutta
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 12, 2003
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      Dear Pali friends,

      Sorry for the blank emails, some Netscape problem.

      Here is the mail: any comments from anyone?

      Sukhi.

      P.
      ----------

      Subject: Anapanasati Sutta
      Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 12:55:40 -0800
      From: "Michael Olds" <MikeOlds@...>
      To: "Piya Tan" <libris@...>

      Piya Tan,

      Your translation of The Anapanasati Sutta is now available on BuddhaDust at:

      http://www.buddhadust.org/sutta/mn/118-anapanasatisutta.htm

      BuddhaDust is an organic website...please feel free to send in revisions as
      you see fit.

      I have made a number of notes as I was doing the reformatting of this. I
      submit them below with the hope that they will be taken in the spirit of
      brotherhood in the Dhamma. Most are minor matters of English grammar. A
      couple are points of discussion. The points of discussion I have included as
      footnotes to the version placed on BuddhaDust, and here too, I welcome your
      debate should you wish to have it included.
      I have included my notes as a separate page, so the only intrusion on your
      presentation is a small superscript number that is the link. I have tried to
      follow your style as much as possible. For the Pali I have used my own
      MozPali font, and I have also joined together most of the compound Pali
      words you present using comma-separations as this is the style people are
      used to on BuddhaDust.

      Here are my notes:

      1. Numbers in [79] brackets refer to what text?

      2. page 5: "Monks, such is this community of monks, such is this assembly,
      that it is worth going many leagues with only a travelling bag just to see
      such a one."

      The phrase "such is this assembly, that it is worth..." should be "such
      is this assembly, that it would be worth..."

      The phrase "...just to see such a one." is used when one is refering to
      an individual. We need to hear "...just to see such an assembly." "such a
      thing" could be used here, or to use what would be used in speech today, one
      would say: "such a sight".

      3. page 7 and following: In the phrase "Monks, when the mindfulness of the
      In-and-out Breath is developed ..." it should be "...when mindfulness of the
      In-and-out Breath..."
      3a. "exertive" is not a real word

      4. page 11: "That is why, monks, when a monk dwells contemplating the body
      as body, exertive, fully understanding, mindful, having put away
      covetousness and displeasure for the world."
      is not a complete sentence.

      5. page 11, footnote 45: "Vineyya, this means that the five hindrances have
      to be abandoned prior to practising satipaÂÂhana."

      I hope you will not object to my discussing a point of dhamma?

      As stated, this is not correct. Satipatthana practice clearly starts out as
      a method of training for beginners. The hindrances are traditionally (and
      logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
      jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
      encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
      first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
      hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
      perfection.
      What is said is that one sits down putting away the coveting and dejection
      (here displeasure) for the world. What is being spoken of in the
      Satipatthana (indeed in the whole of the Dhamma) is a process. One sits down
      with the intent of... The instruction is: "How does one so live in a body,
      etc...that one abandons. Clearly a method is being described, not an
      accomplished state.
      Finally, putting away the hindrances prior to practicing the satipatthana is
      impossible, it is precisely practicing the satipatthana that is the method
      for putting away the hindrances. This is why it comes before Samma Samadhi.
      "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as a matter of course,
      the development of Samma Samadhi."

      So this goes back to the wording in the previous note where I would make it
      a complete sentence by reading it:

      "--it is then, monks, that a monk dwells...
      That is how it is, monks, that when a monk dwells contemplating the body as
      body, exertive, fully understanding, mindful, he has put away covetousness
      and displeasure for the world."

      You essentially make this point yourself in the next note (#46).

      With regard to this passage, Horner has:

      "And how, monks, when mindfulness of in-breathing and out-breathing is
      developed, how when it is made much of, does it bring the four applicatins
      of mindfulness to fulfilment? At the time, monks, when a monk breathing
      in...comprehends, 'I am breathing in...when he trains himself thinking "I
      will breath in ... at that time, monkks the monk is faring along
      contemplating the body in the body ardent, clearly conscious (of it),
      mindful (of it) so as to control the covetousness and dejection in the
      world."

      And Nanamoli/Bodhi has:

      "And how, bhikkhus, does mindfulness of breathing, developed and cultivated,
      fulfil...? ...on whatever occasion a bhikkhu, breathing in long,
      understands...--on that occasion a bhikkhu abides contemplating the body as
      a body, ardent, fully aware, and mindful, having put away covetousness and
      grief for the world.

      Meaning that after having done the developing, then there is fulfilment and
      putting away of covetousness and grief...

      6. page 11, note 48: (sorry about this...my Pali font)Kayesu kay’
      a¾¾atar¢ha·, bhikkhave, eva· vadami yad-ida·: ass¤sa,pass¤s¤.
      In the body / the-body all-kinds I / O monks/ thus / I say / that is to say:
      / in-breath out-breath.
      Monks, this in-and-out-breath is one of the bodies, I declare.

      HORNER:
      I say, monks,that of bodies this is one, that is to say breathiing-in and
      breathing-out.

      Who footnotes: kayesu. MA. iv. 140, among the four bodies of extension and
      so on, this is one (a¾¾atara), I say it is the body of mobility (v¤yok¤ya).
      Or, the body that is material shape consists of twenty-five classes of r¬pa
      (mentioned at Dhs §585): r¬p¤yatana· . . .pe . . . kabi²iºk¤ro ¤h¤ro.
      Of these, breathing is a body because it is included in the field of touch.

      NANAMOLI/BODHI:

      I say that this is a certain body among the bodies, namely, in-breathing and
      out-breathing.

      Who footnotes with the same reference which he translates: MA:
      In-and-outbreathing is to be counted as the air element among the four
      elements making up the body. It should also be included in the base of
      tangibles among bodily phenomena (since the object of attention is the touch
      sensation of the breath entering and leaving the nostrils).

      The Pali (PTS):
      K¤yesu k¤ya¾¾atar¤ha·, bhikkhave, eta· vad¤mi yadida· ass¤sapass¤sa·.

      MO:
      The first thing to remember here is that this same line is later used for
      vedana (sensation), so whatever explanation is given for the one must fit
      the other.

      I say, beggars, that in- and out-breathing is a body of sorts.
      or
      I say, beggars, that in terms of bodies, in- and out-breathing is a sort of
      body.
      or, I would say, aiming at the meaning:
      I say, beggars, that thinking in terms of body, in- and out-breathing can be
      seen as representative of body.

      7 & 8. page 12. Incomplete sentences...I would correct as above note 5:

      That is why, monks, when a monk dwells contemplating feelings as feelings,
      exertive, fully understanding, mindful, having put away covetousness and
      displeasure for the world.

      and

      That is why, monks, when a monk dwells contemplating mind as mind, exertive,
      fully understand-ing, mindful, having put away covetousness and displeasure
      for the world.

      9. page 13: That is why, monks, when a monk dwells contemplating
      mind-objects as mind-objects, exertive, fully understanding, mindful, having
      put away covetousness and displeasure for the world.
      Incomplete sentences.

      10. page 13, note 59: "dhammavicaya. Sometimes this is taken as
      "investigation of the Doctrine", but the meaning here is rather
      "investigation of bodily and mental phenomena" (Walshe 1995n690)."
      Think about this. What do we, as Buddhists do when we think about
      investigating bodily and mental phenomena? We investigate with the idea of
      understanding impermanance, not-self, and change, and what is this but
      doctrine?
      To read it your way would be to necessitate investigating things in such a
      way as an ordinary person investigates and the result could be no better
      than ordinary knowledge.

      Best Wishes!
      Michael Olds
      Los Altos California
      http://www.BuddhaDust.org

      ----------



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • nina van gorkom
      op 12-01-2003 11:54 schreef Piya Tan op libris@singnet.com.sg: Dear Piya Tan, I just have some remarks, concerning the discussion I find very interesting. ...
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 13, 2003
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        op 12-01-2003 11:54 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:

        Dear Piya Tan, I just have some remarks, concerning the discussion I find
        very interesting.

        > 5. page 11, footnote 45: "Vineyya, this means that the five hindrances have
        > to be abandoned prior to practising satipaÂÂhana."

        >Piya Tan: As stated, this is not correct. Satipatthana practice clearly starts
        out as
        > a method of training for beginners. The hindrances are traditionally (and
        > logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
        > jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
        > encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
        > first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
        > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
        > perfection.
        > What is said is that one sits down putting away the coveting and dejection
        > (here displeasure) for the world. What is being spoken of in the
        > Satipatthana (indeed in the whole of the Dhamma) is a process. One sits down
        > with the intent of... The instruction is: "How does one so live in a body,
        > etc...that one abandons. Clearly a method is being described, not an
        > accomplished state.
        > Finally, putting away the hindrances prior to practicing the satipatthana is
        > impossible, it is precisely practicing the satipatthana that is the method
        > for putting away the hindrances. This is why it comes before Samma Samadhi.
        > "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as a matter of course,
        > the development of Samma Samadhi."
        ________________________________________
        Nina: There are two kinds of abandoning: we read in the Commentary to the
        Satipatthanasutta:
        vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassanti vutta.m. Tattha vineyyaati
        tada'ngavinayena vaa vikkhambanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa.

        vikkhambanavinaya is the abandoning in subduing by way of jhaana, and
        tada'ngavinaya is the abandoning by way of the development of vipassana,
        abandoning by the opposites.
        I see it in this way, that the anapanasati sutta is directed towards highly
        gifted monks, who could attain jhana, use jhana as base for vipassana and
        then attain arahatship.
        As you rightly say, in the development of vipassana the tadanga pahaana is
        a whole process.
        As to your words, <The hindrances are traditionally (and
        > logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
        > jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
        > encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
        > first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
        > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
        > perfection.>
        Nina: It is true that the hindrances are subdued and then suppressed by the
        jhana factors. It is just your last sentence I may have not understood
        rightly:<The
        > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
        > perfection.> and also: "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as
        a matter of course,
        the development of Samma Samadhi."

        As I see it, the Satipatthanas include all phenomena which can be objects of
        awareness and right understanding. Also the hindrances. If we are not aware
        of akusala we shall continue to take them for self. Do you see any
        indication in the teachings that there is a specific order of development? I
        see the order of the four satipatthanas more as desana naya. I feel that
        there is no need to wait for the dhammanupassanaa satipatthaana, since it
        all depends on what object appears to sati and pa~n~naa at a given moment.
        As to sammasamadhi, this is a factor of the eightfold Path that goes
        together with the other factors, it is IMO not developed separately. What
        degree of calm, it may be of the degree of jhana or not, depends on the
        person who develops the Path. We all have different inclinations, different
        accumulations.

        I quote from a post on anapana sati sutta I wrote some time ago for dsg
        yahoo:
        In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII,
        223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses,
        marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which
        are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. VIII, 223-226:
        < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and
        out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that
        just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing
        to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and
        out-breaths are due to the body and the mind.

        Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality,
        and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as
        the immaterial...
        Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...>

        The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight
        (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read:
        <After he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has
        become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the
        nineteen kinds of ³Reviewing Knowledge², and he becomes fit to receive the
        highest gifts from the world with its deities.>
        The first tetrad refers to contemplation of body, and the other three
        tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings,
        citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. The Visuddhimagga explains that the
        first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with
        insight alone.

        I quote from the Commentary, I read in Thai:
        <In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more
        explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the
        meditator has emerged from jhana.
        As we read at the end of the first tetrad, <I say, monks, that of bodies,
        this is one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out...>The Commentary
        explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: <We speak of a certain body
        among the four bodies beginning with the Earth body (N: the four Great
        Elements of Earth or solidity, Water or cohesion, Fire or temperature and
        Wind or motion). We say that breath is a body. Further, the twentyfive
        classes of rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana)....
        nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from the
        mental body). Of these, breathing is ³a certain body² because it is included
        in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). ³That is why²: because he
        contemplates the body of wind (vaayokaaya, motion or pressure) among the
        four bodies (N: the four Great Elements), or he sees breath as one body
        among the twentyfive rupas which are the physical body, ruupakaaya.
        Therefore he contemplates and sees the body in the body, is the meaning.>
        N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through
        the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or
        motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as
        non-self. >
        Nina.
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Nina, Thanks for your insightful response. However, please note that the questions and statements raised here are from the original sender, whose email I
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 13, 2003
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          Dear Nina,

          Thanks for your insightful response. However, please note that the questions and
          statements raised here are from the original sender, whose email I have forwarded to
          our website. Actually I have no issue here, but I really appreciate your response, as
          it gives some very useful references not easily found elsewhere.

          Let me clarify that my purpose in preparing the "Living Word of the Buddha" series is
          not so much for doctrinal explication (which is beneficial no doubt) but more from a
          practical and beginner's approach to introduce the Pali Suttas and encourage them to
          explore Buddhist spirituality. My main consultant is Ajahn Brahm though I also value
          opinions from other learned and experienced ordained or lay (like yourself).

          Personally, I have also found it sufficient to keep the study of the Suttas at the
          canonical Sutta level without much resort to the Commentaries but which can be
          helpful in times of difficulties.

          Sukhi.

          P.

          nina van gorkom wrote:

          > op 12-01-2003 11:54 schreef Piya Tan op libris@...:
          >
          > Dear Piya Tan, I just have some remarks, concerning the discussion I find
          > very interesting.
          >
          > > 5. page 11, footnote 45: "Vineyya, this means that the five hindrances have
          > > to be abandoned prior to practising satipaÂÂhana."
          >
          > >Piya Tan: As stated, this is not correct. Satipatthana practice clearly starts
          > out as
          > > a method of training for beginners. The hindrances are traditionally (and
          > > logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
          > > jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
          > > encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
          > > first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
          > > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
          > > perfection.
          > > What is said is that one sits down putting away the coveting and dejection
          > > (here displeasure) for the world. What is being spoken of in the
          > > Satipatthana (indeed in the whole of the Dhamma) is a process. One sits down
          > > with the intent of... The instruction is: "How does one so live in a body,
          > > etc...that one abandons. Clearly a method is being described, not an
          > > accomplished state.
          > > Finally, putting away the hindrances prior to practicing the satipatthana is
          > > impossible, it is precisely practicing the satipatthana that is the method
          > > for putting away the hindrances. This is why it comes before Samma Samadhi.
          > > "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as a matter of course,
          > > the development of Samma Samadhi."
          > ________________________________________
          > Nina: There are two kinds of abandoning: we read in the Commentary to the
          > Satipatthanasutta:
          > vineyya loke abhijjhaadomanassanti vutta.m. Tattha vineyyaati
          > tada'ngavinayena vaa vikkhambanavinayena vaa vinayitvaa.
          >
          > vikkhambanavinaya is the abandoning in subduing by way of jhaana, and
          > tada'ngavinaya is the abandoning by way of the development of vipassana,
          > abandoning by the opposites.
          > I see it in this way, that the anapanasati sutta is directed towards highly
          > gifted monks, who could attain jhana, use jhana as base for vipassana and
          > then attain arahatship.
          > As you rightly say, in the development of vipassana the tadanga pahaana is
          > a whole process.
          > As to your words, <The hindrances are traditionally (and
          > > logically, and necessarily abandoned prior to the entrance to the first
          > > jhana, and jhana practice is not encountered in the satipatthana until one
          > > encounters the fourth of the satipatthanas (and it is there, also, that one
          > > first encounters the hindrances). Something like this might be said: The
          > > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
          > > perfection.>
          > Nina: It is true that the hindrances are subdued and then suppressed by the
          > jhana factors. It is just your last sentence I may have not understood
          > rightly:<The
          > > hindrances must be abandoned before the Satipatthanas can be brought to
          > > perfection.> and also: "The full development of Samma Satipatthana brings, as
          > a matter of course,
          > the development of Samma Samadhi."
          >
          > As I see it, the Satipatthanas include all phenomena which can be objects of
          > awareness and right understanding. Also the hindrances. If we are not aware
          > of akusala we shall continue to take them for self. Do you see any
          > indication in the teachings that there is a specific order of development? I
          > see the order of the four satipatthanas more as desana naya. I feel that
          > there is no need to wait for the dhammanupassanaa satipatthaana, since it
          > all depends on what object appears to sati and pa~n~naa at a given moment.
          > As to sammasamadhi, this is a factor of the eightfold Path that goes
          > together with the other factors, it is IMO not developed separately. What
          > degree of calm, it may be of the degree of jhana or not, depends on the
          > person who develops the Path. We all have different inclinations, different
          > accumulations.
          >
          > I quote from a post on anapana sati sutta I wrote some time ago for dsg
          > yahoo:
          > In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII,
          > 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses,
          > marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which
          > are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. VIII, 223-226:
          > < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and
          > out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that
          > just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing
          > to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and
          > out-breaths are due to the body and the mind.
          >
          > Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality,
          > and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as
          > the immaterial...
          > Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...>
          >
          > The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight
          > (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read:
          > <After he has thus reached the four noble paths in due succession and has
          > become established in the fruition of arahatship, he at last attains to the
          > nineteen kinds of ³Reviewing Knowledge², and he becomes fit to receive the
          > highest gifts from the world with its deities.>
          > The first tetrad refers to contemplation of body, and the other three
          > tetrads refer respectively to the contemplation of feelings in feelings,
          > citta in citta, dhammas in dhammas. The Visuddhimagga explains that the
          > first three tetrads deal with calm and insight and the fourth deals with
          > insight alone.
          >
          > I quote from the Commentary, I read in Thai:
          > <In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more
          > explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the
          > meditator has emerged from jhana.
          > As we read at the end of the first tetrad, <I say, monks, that of bodies,
          > this is one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out...>The Commentary
          > explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: <We speak of a certain body
          > among the four bodies beginning with the Earth body (N: the four Great
          > Elements of Earth or solidity, Water or cohesion, Fire or temperature and
          > Wind or motion). We say that breath is a body. Further, the twentyfive
          > classes of rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana)....
          > nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from the
          > mental body). Of these, breathing is ³a certain body² because it is included
          > in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). ³That is why²: because he
          > contemplates the body of wind (vaayokaaya, motion or pressure) among the
          > four bodies (N: the four Great Elements), or he sees breath as one body
          > among the twentyfive rupas which are the physical body, ruupakaaya.
          > Therefore he contemplates and sees the body in the body, is the meaning.>
          > N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through
          > the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or
          > motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as
          > non-self. >
          > Nina.
          >
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