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Re: [Pali] The Twin Miracle, Yamaka Patihara

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Frank, ... N: I find the commentary quite clear. The Buddha knew what was best for a particular person and he had vaca sacca, always speaking the truth.
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 12, 2013
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      Dear Frank,
      Op 11-feb-2013, om 17:19 heeft Frank K het volgende geschreven:

      > The problem is the Buddha guaranteed his cousin Nanda
      > celestial nymphs if he didn't disrobe and remained in the order. If
      > the
      > Buddha had made the guarantee in a not so ironclad way, I wouldn't
      > have a
      > problem with that either. For example, if he said, "Nanda, if you
      > don't
      > disrobe, I will show you how to develop samatha to the point where you
      > could easily attain celestial nymphs." Then the Buddha would be
      > stating a
      > truth, and not making ironclad guarantees that seem to be not
      > something an
      > enlightened being would say.
      -----
      N: I find the commentary quite clear. The Buddha knew what was best
      for a particular person and he had vaca sacca, always speaking the
      truth.
      ------
      >
      > F:In the case of Angulimala, is there any other precedent in the
      > Canon where
      > someone can commit such heinous crimes as Angulimala and still attain
      > arahantship or even stream entry in that safe lifetime?
      -----
      N: He had killed, but not committed a heinous crime like killing
      parents or the Buddha. A heinous crime is an impediment. There was
      not such an imediment.
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Frank K
      Dear Nina, ... So trying to deliberately murder a Samma Sambuddha, and failing only because the Buddha stopped him, is not considered heinous? Just a petty
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 12, 2013
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        Dear Nina,

        > F:In the case of Angulimala, is there any other precedent in the
        > > Canon where
        > > someone can commit such heinous crimes as Angulimala and still attain
        > > arahantship or even stream entry in that safe lifetime?
        > -----
        > N: He had killed, but not committed a heinous crime like killing
        > parents or the Buddha. A heinous crime is an impediment. There was
        > not such an imediment.
        >
        > Nina.
        >
        >
        So trying to deliberately murder a Samma Sambuddha, and failing only
        because the Buddha stopped him, is not considered heinous? Just a petty
        crime, a misdemeanor, a mere impediment? In my book, when you have the
        intention, have planned it out, carried it out and almost certainly would
        have succeeded with that action 99% of the time if not for extraordinary
        intervention, the kammic fruit for that is much closer to 99% of full
        kammic fruit than 0%.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chanida
        Dear Frank, I understand your confusion. Things can appear very contradictory. But how would you think about the following story? (My example is perhaps out of
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 12, 2013
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          Dear Frank,

          I understand your confusion. Things can appear very contradictory. But how would you think about the following story? (My example is perhaps out of date, but it could probably give you some ideas.)

          1. A teenager wanted to buy a game with the small money he had.
          2. His father showed him a more sophisticated gaming machinery, in which he was much more interested, and guaranteed that he would obtain it if he would keep that money and continued assisting with their family business.
          3. As time passed, the son grew up, having an amount of money in hand which was sufficient to buy a car.
          4. Ridiculed by his friends for desiring for a gaming machine which is 'not suitable for an adult,' the son agreed and then decided to buy a car instead.

          In this case, do you think that the father lied in guaranteeing his son that he would obtain the gaming machinery? I think that it is not the case. It was just the son himself changed his mind, even though he could obtain what he was promised.

          In the same way, if Nanda continued on his ordination, he certainly would have to practise according to the discipline and the dhamma. Such is meritorious and contributes to sufficient merit (puñña) for him to be reborn as a 'devaputta' with celestial nymph retinue after death, if his mind still desired so. However, as he continued his practice and ridiculed by his fellow monks for such an inappropriate desire. He agreed, abandoned such desire and, instead, pursue a higher (highest) goal, i.e., nibbāna.

          As for the case of Aṅgulimāla and Ajātasattu, it is the work of mixed kamma that complecates things. Everyone has done miscellaneous kammas. But it is the strongest vipāka that takes priority.

          Will explain more when I have time, and if it is still needed. But in brief, Ajātasattu's bad kamma is like a horse, while his good kamma is like a dog. The horse runs faster. This is opposite in the case of Aṅgulimāla who was ordained and properly practised himself under the Buddha's guidance. You may find further information that his monk's life was not at all easy. But he tolerated it and trained himself appropriately, and finally won.

          With mettā,
          Chanida
        • Kumara Bhikkhu
          Very well said, Chanida. Sadhu! About the Ven Nanda s story, I d like to add that Buddha probably saw what would happen. One might say that it s somewhat
          Message 4 of 16 , Mar 17, 2013
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            Very well said, Chanida. Sadhu!

            About the Ven Nanda's story, I'd like to add that Buddha probably saw
            what would happen. One might say that it's somewhat crafty of the
            Buddha (and of the father in your analogy), but it's completely
            compassionate. On the similar note, Anathapindika was also somewhat
            crafty in bribing his son to attend talks by the Buddha.

            Chanida wrote thus at 03:05 AM 13-02-13:
            >Dear Frank,
            >
            >I understand your confusion. Things can appear very contradictory.
            >But how would you think about the following story? (My example is
            >perhaps out of date, but it could probably give you some ideas.)
            >
            >1. A teenager wanted to buy a game with the small money he had.
            >2. His father showed him a more sophisticated gaming machinery, in
            >which he was much more interested, and guaranteed that he would
            >obtain it if he would keep that money and continued assisting with
            >their family business.
            >3. As time passed, the son grew up, having an amount of money in
            >hand which was sufficient to buy a car.
            >4. Ridiculed by his friends for desiring for a gaming machine which
            >is 'not suitable for an adult,' the son agreed and then decided to
            >buy a car instead.
            >
            >In this case, do you think that the father lied in guaranteeing his
            >son that he would obtain the gaming machinery? I think that it is
            >not the case. It was just the son himself changed his mind, even
            >though he could obtain what he was promised.
            >
            >In the same way, if Nanda continued on his ordination, he certainly
            >would have to practise according to the discipline and the dhamma.
            >Such is meritorious and contributes to sufficient merit
            >(puñña) for him to be reborn as a 'devaputta' with
            >celestial nymph retinue after death, if his mind still desired so.
            >However, as he continued his practice and ridiculed by his fellow
            >monks for such an inappropriate desire. He agreed, abandoned such
            >desire and, instead, pursue a higher (highest) goal, i.e., nibbāna.
            >
            >As for the case of Aṅgulimāla and Ajātasattu, it is
            >the work of mixed kamma that complecates things. Everyone has done
            >miscellaneous kammas. But it is the strongest vipāka that takes priority.
            >
            >Will explain more when I have time, and if it is still needed. But
            >in brief, Ajātasattu's bad kamma is like a horse, while his
            >good kamma is like a dog. The horse runs faster. This is opposite in
            >the case of Aṅgulimāla who was ordained and properly
            >practised himself under the Buddha's guidance. You may find further
            >information that his monk's life was not at all easy. But he
            >tolerated it and trained himself appropriately, and finally won.
            >
            >With mettā,
            >Chanida
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Frank, ... N: Conditions, conditions. We cannot understand all conditions thoroughly. We have to consider which factors make akusala kamma a heinous
            Message 5 of 16 , Mar 20, 2013
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              Dear Frank,
              Op 12-feb-2013, om 17:23 heeft Frank K het volgende geschreven:

              > N: He had killed, but not committed a heinous crime like killing
              > > parents or the Buddha. A heinous crime is an impediment. There was
              > > not such an imediment.
              > >
              > >
              > F: So trying to deliberately murder a Samma Sambuddha, and failing
              > only
              > because the Buddha stopped him, is not considered heinous?
              ------
              N: Conditions, conditions. We cannot understand all conditions
              thoroughly.
              We have to consider which factors make akusala kamma a heinous crime,
              and thus a hindrance to enlightenment.
              -------
              > F: Just a petty
              > crime, a misdemeanor, a mere impediment? In my book, when you have the
              > intention, have planned it out, carried it out and almost certainly
              > would
              > have succeeded with that action 99% of the time if not for
              > extraordinary
              > intervention, the kammic fruit for that is much closer to 99% of full
              > kammic fruit than 0%.
              -------
              N: I understand your point of view, you are reasoning, you have a
              logical view about things.
              But kamma and vipaaka is most intricate and only Buddhas can
              thoroughly understand it.
              What is our understanding compared to the Buddha's omniscience?
              The Buddha also knew the kusala and understanding Angulima had
              accumulated in former lives. This was never lost and could bear
              fruit. When considering kamma and result so many factors also
              stemming from past lives have to be taken into consideration. We do
              not have the Buddha's wisdom.
              I understand that at first sight you find things incomprehensible.
              But let us consider things more deeply, not just by logic.
              We can never judge the deeds of someone else, who knows his past
              accumulations? We also may have killed in former lives, but now: here
              we are studying Dhamma. This sutta is also an encouragement that
              kusala is never lost, somehow it will bear fruit, inspite of all the
              tribulations one may experience.
              Angulima was aware and developed understanding of whatever dhamma
              appeared at the present moment, even akusala dhamma; he saw that as
              just a conditioned reality. Only in that way he could attain
              arahatship. So, let us never forget the dhamma appearing right now.
              The only way.

              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • stefan_karpik
              What Nina says is somewhat supported by Richard Gombrich in How Buddhism Began . He argues that Angulimala was a Kali devotee and his murders were part of his
              Message 6 of 16 , Mar 21, 2013
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                What Nina says is somewhat supported by Richard Gombrich in 'How Buddhism Began'. He argues that Angulimala was a Kali devotee and his murders were part of his devotions. With that information, one can begin to see Angulimala as a very religious person practising misguided rites and rituals until the Buddha opened his eyes. Angulimala still puzzles me, but this makes him a little more understandable.

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Frank,
                > Op 12-feb-2013, om 17:23 heeft Frank K het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > > N: He had killed, but not committed a heinous crime like killing
                > > > parents or the Buddha. A heinous crime is an impediment. There was
                > > > not such an imediment.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > F: So trying to deliberately murder a Samma Sambuddha, and failing
                > > only
                > > because the Buddha stopped him, is not considered heinous?
                > ------
                > N: Conditions, conditions. We cannot understand all conditions
                > thoroughly.
                > We have to consider which factors make akusala kamma a heinous crime,
                > and thus a hindrance to enlightenment.
                > -------
                > > F: Just a petty
                > > crime, a misdemeanor, a mere impediment? In my book, when you have the
                > > intention, have planned it out, carried it out and almost certainly
                > > would
                > > have succeeded with that action 99% of the time if not for
                > > extraordinary
                > > intervention, the kammic fruit for that is much closer to 99% of full
                > > kammic fruit than 0%.
                > -------
                > N: I understand your point of view, you are reasoning, you have a
                > logical view about things.
                > But kamma and vipaaka is most intricate and only Buddhas can
                > thoroughly understand it.
                > What is our understanding compared to the Buddha's omniscience?
                > The Buddha also knew the kusala and understanding Angulima had
                > accumulated in former lives. This was never lost and could bear
                > fruit. When considering kamma and result so many factors also
                > stemming from past lives have to be taken into consideration. We do
                > not have the Buddha's wisdom.
                > I understand that at first sight you find things incomprehensible.
                > But let us consider things more deeply, not just by logic.
                > We can never judge the deeds of someone else, who knows his past
                > accumulations? We also may have killed in former lives, but now: here
                > we are studying Dhamma. This sutta is also an encouragement that
                > kusala is never lost, somehow it will bear fruit, inspite of all the
                > tribulations one may experience.
                > Angulima was aware and developed understanding of whatever dhamma
                > appeared at the present moment, even akusala dhamma; he saw that as
                > just a conditioned reality. Only in that way he could attain
                > arahatship. So, let us never forget the dhamma appearing right now.
                > The only way.
                >
                > Nina.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Chanida
                Dear Frank, On preparing for the Sunday dhamma study class, I incidentally came across this relevant reference, being another version of the Buddha s guarantee
                Message 7 of 16 , Mar 21, 2013
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                  Dear Frank,

                  On preparing for the Sunday dhamma study class, I incidentally came across this relevant reference, being another version of the Buddha's guarantee to Nanda in the commentary to AN.I which is probably clearer than the one from Dhammapadaṭṭhakathā you referred to:

                  "Nanda, evarūpā accharā samaṇadhammaṃ karontānaṃ na dullabhāti. Sace me, bhante bhagavā, pāṭibhogo hoti, ahaṃ samaṇadhammaṃ karissāmīti. Vissattho tvaṃ, nanda, samaṇadhammaṃ karohi. Sace te sappaṭisandhikā kālakiriyā bhavissati, ahaṃ etāsaṃ paṭilābhatthāya pāṭibhogoti." (AN-a 1.316-7)

                  Rough translation:

                  Buddha: "Nanda, such celestial nymphs are not hard to be obtained for those who practise samaṇa-dhamma."

                  Nanda: If the Blessed one will be my guarantor, I will do it.

                  Buddha: "Be confident, Nanda. Practise samaṇa-dhammmma. If there will be death with (future) rebirth for you, I am guarantor for the obtainment of those nymphs."

                  As for another example of another killer who attained dhamma, see the story of Tambadāṭhikacoraghātaka in the Dhammapadaṭṭhakathā 2.202-208.

                  As for the comparison of Ajātasattu, you may recollect that he did not practise himself according to Buddha's teachings as did Angulimala. The best Ajatasattu did was only 'dāna', and he has not abandoned any desire. See the story of Jotika where Ajātasattu's greed was mentioned.

                  Metta,
                  Chanida

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank K <frank48k@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The problem is the Buddha guaranteed his cousin Nanda
                  > celestial nymphs if he didn't disrobe and remained in the order. If the
                  > Buddha had made the guarantee in a not so ironclad way, I wouldn't have a
                  > problem with that either. For example, if he said, "Nanda, if you don't
                  > disrobe, I will show you how to develop samatha to the point where you
                  > could easily attain celestial nymphs." Then the Buddha would be stating a
                  > truth, and not making ironclad guarantees that seem to be not something an
                  > enlightened being would say.
                  >
                  > In the case of Angulimala, is there any other precedent in the Canon where
                  > someone can commit such heinous crimes as Angulimala and still attain
                  > arahantship or even stream entry in that safe lifetime?
                • Frank K
                  Dear Chanida, The diacritics in your pali quotes are not coming out correctly through the pali email subscription or looking at the message itself on the yahoo
                  Message 8 of 16 , Mar 24, 2013
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                    Dear Chanida,
                    The diacritics in your pali quotes are not coming out correctly through the
                    pali email subscription or looking at the message itself on the yahoo server
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/16021

                    Getting unicode to work on yahoogroups is possible, but it can be tricky.
                    You can try the velthuis converter that they've been discussing recently.

                    metta,
                    frank

                    On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Chanida <jchanida@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Frank,
                    >
                    > On preparing for the Sunday dhamma study class, I incidentally came across
                    > this relevant reference, being another version of the Buddha's guarantee to
                    > Nanda in the commentary to AN.I which is probably clearer than the one from
                    > Dhammapadaṭṭhakathā you referred to:
                    >
                    > "Nanda, evarūpā accharā samaṇadhammaṃ
                    > karontānaṃ na dullabhāti. Sace me, bhante bhagavā,
                    > pāṭibhogo hoti, ahaṃ samaṇadhammaṃ
                    > karissāmīti. Vissattho tvaṃ, nanda,
                    > samaṇadhammaṃ karohi. Sace te sappaṭisandhikā
                    > kālakiriyā bhavissati, ahaṃ etāsaṃ
                    > paṭilābhatthāya pāṭibhogoti." (AN-a 1.316-7)
                    >
                    > Rough translation:
                    >
                    > Buddha: "Nanda, such celestial nymphs are not hard to be obtained for
                    > those who practise samaṇa-dhamma."
                    >
                    > Nanda: If the Blessed one will be my guarantor, I will do it.
                    >
                    > Buddha: "Be confident, Nanda. Practise samaṇa-dhammmma. If there
                    > will be death with (future) rebirth for you, I am guarantor for the
                    > obtainment of those nymphs."
                    >
                    > As for another example of another killer who attained dhamma, see the
                    > story of Tambadāṭhikacoraghātaka in the
                    > Dhammapadaṭṭhakathā 2.202-208.
                    >
                    > As for the comparison of Ajātasattu, you may recollect that he did
                    > not practise himself according to Buddha's teachings as did Angulimala. The
                    > best Ajatasattu did was only 'dāna', and he has not abandoned any
                    > desire. See the story of Jotika where Ajātasattu's greed was mentioned.
                    >
                    > Metta,
                    > Chanida
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank K <frank48k@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The problem is the Buddha guaranteed his cousin Nanda
                    > > celestial nymphs if he didn't disrobe and remained in the order. If the
                    > > Buddha had made the guarantee in a not so ironclad way, I wouldn't have a
                    > > problem with that either. For example, if he said, "Nanda, if you don't
                    > > disrobe, I will show you how to develop samatha to the point where you
                    > > could easily attain celestial nymphs." Then the Buddha would be stating a
                    > > truth, and not making ironclad guarantees that seem to be not something
                    > an
                    > > enlightened being would say.
                    > >
                    > > In the case of Angulimala, is there any other precedent in the Canon
                    > where
                    > > someone can commit such heinous crimes as Angulimala and still attain
                    > > arahantship or even stream entry in that safe lifetime?
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                    I wonder if it s because this group is set to text only (i.e, no html). Yes, Velthuis is the safest bet here.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Mar 30, 2013
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                      I wonder if it's because this group is set to text only (i.e, no
                      html). Yes, Velthuis is the safest bet here.

                      Frank K wrote thus at 11:13 PM 24-03-13:
                      >Dear Chanida,
                      >The diacritics in your pali quotes are not coming out correctly through the
                      >pali email subscription or looking at the message itself on the yahoo server
                      >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/message/16021
                      >
                      >Getting unicode to work on yahoogroups is possible, but it can be tricky.
                      >You can try the velthuis converter that they've been discussing recently.
                      >
                      >metta,
                      >frank
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