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Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

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  • Kumara Bhikkhu
    Thanks for clarifying, Dieter. 5 senses are absorbed in imagination seems to me a strange phrasing. Do you mean 5 senses are cut off because the mind is
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 27, 2013
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      Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.

      "5 senses are absorbed in imagination" seems to
      me a strange phrasing. Do you mean "5 senses are
      cut off because the mind is absorbed in imagination"?

      In any case, it sounds like you mean the mind is
      no longer with the 5 senses. Right? If so, what
      you provided below still falls short of substantiating that view.

      Anyway, please have a look at this
      sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html

      After the standard description of the 1st jhana, we see
      He regards whatever phenomena there that are
      connected with form, feeling, perception,
      fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant,
      stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow,
      painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration,
      an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away
      from those phenomena, and having done so,
      inclines his mind to the property of
      deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite
      — the resolution of all fabrications; the
      relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of
      craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

      The same is repeated for the 2nd to 4th jhana.
      Notice all the 5 khandhas are included?

      In the same sutta, for the first 3 aruppas, we
      see the same wordings too, except that "form
      (rupa)" is absent. It clearly implies that for
      all the 4 jhanas, form is indeed among the
      phenomena that the practitioner is able to pay
      attention to. It is only in the aruppas (as the
      name itself indicates) that form is not perceived.

      An orthodox Theravadin would try to explain that
      the regarding of phenomena that are connected
      with form and others is done only after emerging
      from jhana, not while in it. If so, why can't the same be done for the aruppas?

      This is not the only sutta that provides such
      evidence, but it's an easier one to understand.

      kb

      Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 04:46 PM 26-01-13:
      >Hi Gerard and Ven.Kumara,
      >
      >I suppose the term absorption is differently
      >understood, perhaps you may agree on following sense:
      >
      >The Buddha mentioned that the state reminded him
      >when he -as a younster-was sitting under the
      >shadow of a Roseapple tree watching his father
      >at work. I can imagine: a hot day , one is a
      >bit idle and starts to doze ,it is daydreaming
      >. In this daydreaming the (cognition of the ) 5
      >senses are absorbed in imagination. And there is
      >this taking up thoughts/ideas and follow them
      >whatever associations comes up).
      >Especially children are great in that , immersed
      >(or absorbed) in the world of Oz , or Peter Pan , etc.)
      >But in the first Jhana, so my
      >understanding, the imagination follows a
      >intended direction (diskursive thinking) , a
      >selection of associations occur and we note the
      >most important factor , the pleasant feeling (of piti , rapture ).
      >
      >By the focus on this pleasant feeling , the
      >activity of thinking (vitakka-vicara )is
      >diminishing , it becomes absorbed within the
      >feeling ... and by that the 2nd Jhana applies....
      >
      >with Metta Dieter
    • Dieter Moeller
      Dear Ven. Kumara, you wrote: Thanks for clarifying, Dieter. D: and thank you for still following the issue Ven.: 5 senses are absorbed in imagination seems
      Message 2 of 3 , Feb 3, 2013
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        Dear Ven. Kumara,

        you wrote:

        Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.

        D: and thank you for still following the issue

        Ven.: "5 senses are absorbed in imagination" seems to me a strange phrasing. Do you mean "5 senses are cut off because the mind is absorbed in imagination"?
        In any case, it sounds like you mean the mind is no longer with the 5 senses. Right? If so, what you provided below still falls short of substantiating that view.

        D: how to put it ? the experience of day-dreaming when the impulses of the 5 senses media are monotonous , like assembly line work , facing a dull environment , are moments we call absent minded , a day-by-day experience. The mind is busy with events of the past planning
        a possible future. Usually the mind wanders from association to association (like described by the simile of the monkey (SN12,61)
        The difference to Jhana -as far as I understand- is represented when the mind is directed ,discursive thinking like stated of the first Jhana
        and from there further progress can be made, in a way the Buddha recalled from his youth , sitting under the Rose Apple tree or -more advanced - Ven Sariputta fanning the Buddha.

        Ven:Anyway, please have a look at this sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.036.than.html

        After the standard description of the 1st jhana, we see e regards whatever phenomena there that are connected with form, feeling, perception,
        fabrications, & consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration,
        an emptiness, not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having done so, inclines his mind to the property of
        deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite - the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of
        craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'
        The same is repeated for the 2nd to 4th jhana. Notice all the 5 khandhas are included?
        In the same sutta, for the first 3 aruppas, we see the same wordings too, except that "form (rupa)" is absent. It clearly implies that for
        all the 4 jhanas, form is indeed among the phenomena that the practitioner is able to pay attention to. It is only in the aruppas (as the
        name itself indicates) that form is not perceived.
        An orthodox Theravadin would try to explain that the regarding of phenomena that are connected with form and others is done only after emerging
        from jhana, not while in it. If so, why can't the same be done for the aruppas?
        This is not the only sutta that provides such evidence, but it's an easier one to understand.

        D: I will come back to above incl. the links you provided before, please excuse my slowness.

        with Metta Dieter




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