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Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard, thanks for your comments. I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel, having my usual sources
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 18, 2013
      Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard,

      thanks for your comments.

      I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel, having my usual sources available then...

      with Metta Dieter

      -------- Original-Nachricht --------
      > Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:11 +0800
      > Von: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
      > An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

      >
      > >Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
      > >To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
      > >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
      > >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
      > >Cc: gmblok@...
      > >
      > >Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
      > >
      > >What you provided from various sources is a
      > >mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
      > >Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
      > >which is why it is confusing to many people.
      > >
      > >Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
      > >dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
      > >monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
      > >attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
      > >discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
      > >detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
      > >(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
      > >absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
      > >says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
      > >consider that it's translating "kama" (which
      > >Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
      > >"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
      > >translation). In no way does it say that one is
      > >cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
      > >
      > >Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
      > >for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
      > >
      > >Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
      > >sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
      > >joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
      > >second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
      > >
      > >Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
      > >translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
      > >here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
      > >
      > >kb
      > >
      > >Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
      > >>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
      > >>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
      > >>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
      > >>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
      > >>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
      > >>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
      > >>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down,
      > blind out
      > >>
      > >>PTS:JhÄ?na1 (nt.) [from jhÄ?yati,1 BSk.
      > >>dhyÄ?na. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhÄ?na
      > >>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
      > >>"Ä?rammaṇ' ûpanijjhÄ?nato paccanÄ«ka --
      > >>jhÄ?panato vÄ? jhÄ?naÅ‹," i.e. called jh. from
      > >>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally
      > meditation
      > >>
      > >>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
      > >>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
      > >>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
      > >>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
      > >>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
      > >>discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
      > >>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
      > >>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
      > >>
      > >>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
      > >>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
      > >>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
      > >>a state free from thought-conception and
      > >>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
      > >>which is born of concentration (samÄ?dhi), and
      > >>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
      > >>
      > >>PTS provides following sources :
      > >>The jhÄ?nas are discussed in extenso & in
      > >>various combinations as regards theory &
      > >>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
      > >>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
      > >>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
      > >>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
      > >>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
      > >>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
      > >>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
      > >>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
      > >>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
      > >>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
      > >>sotÄ?panna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
      > >>222; S ii.278 (nikÄ?malÄ?bhin); A ii.36 (id.);
      > >>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
      > >>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
      > >>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
      > >>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
      > >>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
      > >>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
      > >>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
      > >>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
      > >>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also
      > Kasiṇa.
      > >>
      > >>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
      > >>theory ( contemplation of samma samadhi as an
      > >>object of contemplation within the framework of
      > >>Maha SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not
      > distinguished.
      > >>
      > >>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>With Metta Dieter
      > >>
      > >>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
      > >>delay of postings, no answer so far
      >
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