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Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

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  • Kumara Bhikkhu
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 13, 2013
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      >Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
      >To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
      >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
      >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
      >Cc: gmblok@...
      >
      >Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
      >
      >What you provided from various sources is a
      >mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
      >Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
      >which is why it is confusing to many people.
      >
      >Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
      >dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
      >monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
      >attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
      >discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
      >detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
      >(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
      >absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
      >says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
      >consider that it's translating "kama" (which
      >Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
      >"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
      >translation). In no way does it say that one is
      >cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
      >
      >Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
      >for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
      >
      >Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
      >sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
      >joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
      >second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
      >
      >Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
      >translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
      >here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
      >
      >kb
      >
      >Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
      >>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
      >>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
      >>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
      >>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
      >>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
      >>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
      >>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down, blind out
      >>
      >>PTS:Jhāna1 (nt.) [from jhāyati,1 BSk.
      >>dhyāna. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhāna
      >>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
      >>"ārammaṇ' ûpanijjhānato paccanīka --
      >>jhāpanato vā jhānaŋ," i.e. called jh. from
      >>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally meditation
      >>
      >>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
      >>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
      >>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
      >>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
      >>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
      >>discursive thinking (vicāra), born of
      >>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
      >>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
      >>
      >>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
      >>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
      >>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
      >>a state free from thought-conception and
      >>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
      >>which is born of concentration (samādhi), and
      >>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
      >>
      >>PTS provides following sources :
      >>The jhānas are discussed in extenso & in
      >>various combinations as regards theory &
      >>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
      >>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
      >>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
      >>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
      >>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
      >>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
      >>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
      >>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
      >>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
      >>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
      >>sotāpanna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
      >>222; S ii.278 (nikāmalābhin); A ii.36 (id.);
      >>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
      >>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
      >>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
      >>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
      >>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
      >>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
      >>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
      >>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
      >>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also Kasiṇa.
      >>
      >>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
      >>theory ( contemplation of samma samadhi as an
      >>object of contemplation within the framework of
      >>Maha SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not distinguished.
      >>
      >>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
      >>
      >>
      >>With Metta Dieter
      >>
      >>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
      >>delay of postings, no answer so far
    • Dieter Moeller
      Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard, thanks for your comments. I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel, having my usual sources
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 18, 2013
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        Dear Ven. Kumara and Gerard,

        thanks for your comments.

        I like to come back to this matter when I am return from my present travel, having my usual sources available then...

        with Metta Dieter

        -------- Original-Nachricht --------
        > Datum: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:44:11 +0800
        > Von: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
        > An: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        > Betreff: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?

        >
        > >Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2013 15:29:14 +0800
        > >To: "Dieter Moeller" <moellerdieter@...>
        > >From: Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...>
        > >Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: [Pali] All of that is considered Jhana ?
        > >Cc: gmblok@...
        > >
        > >Thanks for clarifying, Dieter.
        > >
        > >What you provided from various sources is a
        > >mixture of description of Sutta jhana and Vism
        > >Jhana, which is what people in general get too,
        > >which is why it is confusing to many people.
        > >
        > >Referring to this translation in Nyanatiloka's
        > >dictionary: "Detached from sensual objects, o
        > >monks, detached from unwholesome consciousness,
        > >attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
        > >discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
        > >detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
        > >(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first
        > >absorption," I suppose you meant the part that
        > >says "sensual objects", right? If so, please
        > >consider that it's translating "kama" (which
        > >Ajahn Thanissaro would rather have as
        > >"sensuality", which I think is a very accurate
        > >translation). In no way does it say that one is
        > >cut off from the 5 sense media (indriya).
        > >
        > >Also, translating 'piti' as 'rapture' is fine
        > >for Vism Jhana, but not for Sutta jhana. 'Joy' will do.
        > >
        > >Another point: 'vivekajam pitisukham" makes more
        > >sense when translated together as a noun phrase:
        > >joy and happiness born of seclusion", while for
        > >second jhana there's "joy and happiness born of composure (samadhijam)".
        > >
        > >Interestingly in Aj Thanissaro's more recent
        > >translations, he uses 'composure' for 'samadhi'
        > >here too, but has not changed his earlier translations.
        > >
        > >kb
        > >
        > >Dieter Moeller wrote thus at 09:16 AM 14-01-13:
        > >>D: absorbtion ( I understand is the common
        > >>translation) and burning up can be synonymously
        > >>used (e.g. nourishment of fire) in respect to
        > >>first Jhana: sensual objects =5senses media
        > >>,second Jhana: thinking/ mental activity
        > >>(subsiding of thought-conception and discursive thinking).
        > >>I would prefe German "ausblenden" English blank out, fade out/down,
        > blind out
        > >>
        > >>PTS:JhÄ?na1 (nt.) [from jhÄ?yati,1 BSk.
        > >>dhyÄ?na. The (popular etym -- ) expln of jhÄ?na
        > >>is given by Bdhgh at Vism 150 as follows:
        > >>"Ä?rammaṇ' ûpanijjhÄ?nato paccanÄ«ka --
        > >>jhÄ?panato vÄ? jhÄ?naÅ‹," i.e. called jh. from
        > >>meditation on objects & from burning up anything adverse] literally
        > meditation
        > >>
        > >>Nyanatiloka Buddhist Dictionary :
        > >>„The stereotype text, often met with in the Suttas, runs as follows:
        > >>(1) "Detached from sensual objects, o monks,
        > >>detached from unwholesome consciousness,
        > >>attached with thought-conception (vitakka) and
        > >>discursive thinking (vicÄ?ra), born of
        > >>detachment (vivekaja) and filled with rapture
        > >>(pīti) and joy (sukha) he enters the first absorption.
        > >>
        > >>(2) "After the subsiding of thought-conception
        > >>and discursive thinking, and by gaining inner
        > >>tranquility and oneness of mind, he enters into
        > >>a state free from thought-conception and
        > >>discursive thinking, the second absorption,
        > >>which is born of concentration (samÄ?dhi), and
        > >>filled with rapture (pīti) and joy (sukha)."
        > >>
        > >>PTS provides following sources :
        > >>The jhÄ?nas are discussed in extenso & in
        > >>various combinations as regards theory &
        > >>practice at: D i.34 sq.; 73 sq.; S ii. 210 sq.;
        > >>iv.217 sq., 263 sq.; v.213 sq.; M i.276 sq.,
        > >>350 sq., 454 sq.; A i.53, 163; ii.126; iii.394
        > >>sq.; iv.409 sq.; v.157 sq.; Vin iii.4; Nd2 on
        > >>Sn 1119 & s.v.; Ps i.97 sq.; ii.169 sq.; Vbh
        > >>257 sq.; 263 sq.; 279 sq.; Vism 88, 415. --
        > >>They are frequently mentioned either as a set,
        > >>or singly, when often the set is implied (as in
        > >>the case of the 4th jh.). Mentioned as jh. 1 --
        > >>4 e. g. at Vin i.104; ii.161 (foll. by
        > >>sotÄ?panna, etc.); D ii.156, 186; iii.78, 131,
        > >>222; S ii.278 (nikÄ?malÄ?bhin); A ii.36 (id.);
        > >>iii.354; S iv.299; v.307 sq.; M i.21, 41, 159,
        > >>203, 247, 398, 521; ii.15, 37; Sn 69, 156, 985;
        > >>Dh 372; J i.139; VvA 38; PvA 163. --
        > >>Separately: the 1st: A iv.422; v.135; M i.246,
        > >>294; Miln 289; 1st -- 3rd: A iii.323; M i.181;
        > >>1st & 2nd: M ii.28; 4th: A ii.41; iii.325;
        > >>v.31; D iii.270; VvA 4. -- See also Mrs. Rh. D.
        > >>Buddh. Psych. (Quest Series) p. 107 sq.; Dhs.
        > >>trsl. p. 52 sq.; Index to Saŋyutta N. for more refs.; also
        > Kasiṇa.
        > >>
        > >>I suppose that misunderstandings occur when
        > >>theory ( contemplation of samma samadhi as an
        > >>object of contemplation within the framework of
        > >>Maha SatiPatthana) and practise --see standard texts- is not
        > distinguished.
        > >>
        > >>Further investigation of this issue may be benefitial.
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>With Metta Dieter
        > >>
        > >>P.S. I wrote to the list owner concerning the
        > >>delay of postings, no answer so far
        >
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