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Re: [Pali] Re: All of that is considered JhÄ na?

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  • Frank K
    Dear Chanida and NIna and all, Earlier in AN 1.53 (English is bodhi trans.) AN 1.53: “Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues a
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 2, 2013
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      Dear Chanida and NIna and all,


      Earlier in AN 1.53 (English is bodhi trans.)
      AN 1.53: “Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues
      a mind of loving-kindness, he is called a bhikkhu who is not devoid of
      jhāna, who acts upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his
      advice, and who does not eat the country’s almsfood in vain. How much
      more, then, those who cultivate it!”

      At that point as I was reading, it wasn't so puzzling, since metta bhāvana
      is a well known way to launch into first jhāna.

      At AN 1.382, it starts off reasonably enough, with the four jhanas as the
      objects of not "being devoid of jhāna", then mentions not just mettā
      bhāvana but all 4 brahmavihāras. Then it mentions the 4 satipatthana, 4
      aspects of right effort, all part o the samādhi group, so again not too
      surprising and still closely related to jhāna. Then it starts to enumerate
      more topics under "not devoid of jhana", what seems like most of the 37
      bodhipakkiya, and then even 10 kasinas for samatha development, vipassana
      themes, and it seems like everything and the kitchen sink.

      So what is meant by these passages on Jhāna?

      These are the possibilities I can think of:

      1. jhāna is meant here as meditation in general, and not specifically
      sammā samādhi definition for four jhānas.
      2. jhāna (as sammā samādhi) is a prerequisite to bring all of those
      meditation topics mention to their culmination.
      3. sammā samādhi, jhāna and the entirety of the eightfold noble path are
      closely intertwined, so that no part of the buddha's system of practice can
      be devoid of jhāna (sammā samādhi) if one expects to succeed.

      But none of those explanations feels very satisfying. Sometimes the suttas
      seem amazingly precise and specific, and other times like this example,
      vague and confounding.

      p.s. Nina, I posted my original question and this post as well on this page
      here in case the pali diacritics don't appear properly.

      https://sites.google.com/a/audtip.org/pali/pali-discussion-group-questions


      Metta,

      frank





      On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      > **
      >
      >
      > Dear Chanida and Frank,
      > Op 24-dec-2012, om 7:37 heeft Chanida het volgende geschreven:
      >
      >
      > > I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind
      > > must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
      > > cannot be done.
      > ------
      > N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is
      > foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
      > does not know the citta that arises, kusala or akusala, how could one
      > develop samatha.
      > As to the development of vipassanaa, insight, understanding of
      > whatever appears now is developed, so that one knows that it is just
      > a reality, a dhamma. Lobha may appear: it is just a reality. Sadness
      > may appear: it is just a reality, a dhamma. It is not owned by a
      > person, there is no person there. Visible object appears: it is only
      > a dhamma, not a person in the visible object. Very gradually we can
      > understand what anattaa means.
      > I cannot read the quoted text by Frank, it is all warbled. Neither
      > can I look up the text since I do not have yet Venerable Bodhi's
      > translation.
      > ------
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


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    • Piya Tan
      Dear Pali friends, A very happy new year. You can also read something about what Chanida has stated below in Gethin, The Buddhist Path of Awakening, 2001:
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 5, 2013
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        Dear Pali friends,

        A very happy new year.

        You can also read something about what Chanida has stated below in Gethin,
        "The Buddhist Path of Awakening," 2001: 269, where he says the list totals
        191 objects of meditation (Bodhi's latest tr of Anguttara however says the
        list is only 181 (A:B 1.394-574), ie the whole of the Accharra Sa.gghaa.ta
        Vagga.

        Aside, I wonder by the "World Tipitaka" of Bangkok is now offline.
        Previously, we click here:
        http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/
        we are able to access this excellent Tipitaka website. I hope it will get
        back online, or better, have a CD version like CSCD.

        With metta,

        Piya


        On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Chanida <jchanida@...> wrote:

        > **
        >
        >
        > Dear Nina and Frank,
        >
        > Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the
        > Pali canon, I give book and page reference below so that you know which
        > passage Frank referred to.
        >
        > If I understood Frank correctly, his question involves the compound
        > 'arittajjhaano' (not devoid of jhaana) in the stock phrase "Arittajjhaano
        > viharati satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
        > bhu~njati" in Jhaana-vagga of AN volume I (AN I 38-43). Here the Buddha
        > said that a monk who pursues/develops any of the following practices, even
        > for a brief moment, is called 'a monk who is not devoid of jhaana, who acts
        > upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his advice, who does not
        > eat the country's almsfood in vain.' The practices mentioned are: any level
        > of the four jhaanas, mettaa cetovimutti or else upto upekkkhaa cetovimutti,
        > any of the four foundations of mindfulness, chanda and viriya in regard to
        > any of the four padhaanas (sa.mvara-padhaana, pahaana-padhaana,
        > bhaavanaa-padhaana and anurakkhanaa-padhaana), etc.
        >
        > The same expression is found in AN I 10-11, where the same is said for a
        > monk who pursues/develops metta-citta.
        >
        > You can find these in Syamra.t.tha edition vol. 20 p. 20 and pp.50-55 and
        > in MMR Thai translation of Pali canon and commentaries book 32 pp.106-107
        > and book 33, pp.214-219.
        >
        > Frank asked whether all those practices can be considered 'jhaana' as
        > expressed by the compound 'arittajjhaano.' (Frank, please correct me if I
        > misunderstood your question.) My answer was that probably the term 'jhaana'
        > in the compound refers, not directly to those practices, but to the level
        > of necessary concentration associated with those practices.
        >
        > Here, I think the right view is already assumed, and the practices already
        > right-practices. Otherwise the Buddha would not have praised the
        > practitioner (monk) who pursues such practices as "satthu saasanakaro
        > ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"
        >
        > I wish you and all a Happy New Year. :)
        >
        > Metta,
        > Chanida
        >
        >
        >



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      • Frank K
        Dear Piya, This book looks like it s out of print. Amazon sells it for $70 USA dollars. Is there any plan to publish it as an ebook?
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 6, 2013
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          Dear Piya,

          This book looks like it's out of print. Amazon sells it for $70 USA
          dollars. Is there any plan to publish it as an ebook?
          http://www.amazon.com/The-Buddhist-Path-Awakening-Bodhi-Pakkhiya/dp/1851682856/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1357487408&sr=8-7&keywords=The+Buddhist+Path+of+Awakening

          Not long ago I asked Rod at Suttacentral about Worldtipitaka's Thai canon
          being offline. It's a known issue, he doesn't know when they will be back
          online, but that he hoped Suttacentral would have an alternative within a
          few weeks.

          Digital Pali reader has the thai tipitaka as an optional download, I don't
          know if it's the same version as World Tipitaka.

          Speaking of digital tipitaka's, I wonder why everyone doesn't get together,
          put the Burmese, Thai, Sri Lankan and whatever other pali versions of the
          tipitaka in one central repository, so it would be easy to have online
          tools that for example show in color the textual differences between the
          different tipitaka's.

          metta,
          Frank

          On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

          > The Buddhist Path of Awakening


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