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Re: All of that is considered Jhāna?

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  • Chanida
    Dear Frank, This is interesting. I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner s mind must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 23, 2012
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      Dear Frank,

      This is interesting.

      I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice cannot be done.

      The level of concentration in each practice can be different, but is still considered jhaana, even though it may be just momentary jhaana.

      Please correct me if I am wrong.

      Metta,
      Chanida

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Frank K <frank48k@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Pali friends,
      >
      > This part is interesting.
      > I'm reading B.Bodhi's new AN translations book right now.
      >
      > from AN 1.382 to AN 1.554, it seems to qualify many activities as being
      > "jhāna",
      > for example, AN 1.382 - AN 1.393
      >
      > 382*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ
      > bhāveti, ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave â€" ‘bhikkhu arittajjhāno viharati,
      > satthusāsanakaro ovādapatikaro, amoghaṃ raṭṭhapiṇḍaṃ bhuñjati’. ko pana vādo
      > ye naṃ bahulīkarontī”ti!
      >
      > ♦ 383-389*.* “accharāsaṅghātamattampi ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ
      > bhāveti ... pe ... tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ bhāveti ... pe ... catutthaṃ jhānaṃ
      > bhāveti ... pe ... mettaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... karuṇaṃ
      > cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ... muditaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ...
      > upekkhaṃ cetovimuttiṃ bhāveti ... pe ....
      >
      > ♦ 390-393*.* kāye kāyānupassī viharati ātāpī sampajāno satimā vineyya loke
      > abhijjhādomanassaṃ; vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati ... pe ... citte
      > cittānupassī viharati ... pe ... dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati ātāpī
      > sampajāno satimā vineyya loke abhijjhādomanassaṃ.
      >
      >
      > up to AN 1.564, they all share, if I'm interpreting the "pe" and ellisions
      > correctly, this ending clause of "... he is called a bhikkhu who is not
      > devoid of jhāna ..."
      > In the noble eightfold path, sammā samādhi is defined as the 4 jhānas, but
      > how should we understand the "not being devoid of jhāna" as it's used in
      > these AN passages?
      >
      > metta,
      > Frank
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Chanida and Frank, ... N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 31, 2012
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        Dear Chanida and Frank,
        Op 24-dec-2012, om 7:37 heeft Chanida het volgende geschreven:

        > I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind
        > must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
        > cannot be done.
        ------
        N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is
        foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
        does not know the citta that arises, kusala or akusala, how could one
        develop samatha.
        As to the development of vipassanaa, insight, understanding of
        whatever appears now is developed, so that one knows that it is just
        a reality, a dhamma. Lobha may appear: it is just a reality. Sadness
        may appear: it is just a reality, a dhamma. It is not owned by a
        person, there is no person there. Visible object appears: it is only
        a dhamma, not a person in the visible object. Very gradually we can
        understand what anattaa means.
        I cannot read the quoted text by Frank, it is all warbled. Neither
        can I look up the text since I do not have yet Venerable Bodhi's
        translation.
        ------
        Nina.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chanida
        Dear Nina and Frank, Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the Pali canon, I give book and page reference below so that you
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 31, 2012
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          Dear Nina and Frank,

          Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the Pali canon, I give book and page reference below so that you know which passage Frank referred to.

          If I understood Frank correctly, his question involves the compound 'arittajjhaano' (not devoid of jhaana) in the stock phrase "Arittajjhaano viharati satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati" in Jhaana-vagga of AN volume I (AN I 38-43). Here the Buddha said that a monk who pursues/develops any of the following practices, even for a brief moment, is called 'a monk who is not devoid of jhaana, who acts upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his advice, who does not eat the country's almsfood in vain.' The practices mentioned are: any level of the four jhaanas, mettaa cetovimutti or else upto upekkkhaa cetovimutti, any of the four foundations of mindfulness, chanda and viriya in regard to any of the four padhaanas (sa.mvara-padhaana, pahaana-padhaana, bhaavanaa-padhaana and anurakkhanaa-padhaana), etc.

          The same expression is found in AN I 10-11, where the same is said for a monk who pursues/develops metta-citta.

          You can find these in Syamra.t.tha edition vol. 20 p. 20 and pp.50-55 and in MMR Thai translation of Pali canon and commentaries book 32 pp.106-107 and book 33, pp.214-219.

          Frank asked whether all those practices can be considered 'jhaana' as expressed by the compound 'arittajjhaano.' (Frank, please correct me if I misunderstood your question.) My answer was that probably the term 'jhaana' in the compound refers, not directly to those practices, but to the level of necessary concentration associated with those practices.

          Here, I think the right view is already assumed, and the practices already right-practices. Otherwise the Buddha would not have praised the practitioner (monk) who pursues such practices as "satthu saasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"

          I wish you and all a Happy New Year. :)

          Metta,
          Chanida
        • Frank K
          Dear Chanida and NIna and all, Earlier in AN 1.53 (English is bodhi trans.) AN 1.53: “Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues a
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 2, 2013
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            Dear Chanida and NIna and all,


            Earlier in AN 1.53 (English is bodhi trans.)
            AN 1.53: “Bhikkhus, if for just the time of a finger snap a bhikkhu pursues
            a mind of loving-kindness, he is called a bhikkhu who is not devoid of
            jhāna, who acts upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his
            advice, and who does not eat the country’s almsfood in vain. How much
            more, then, those who cultivate it!”

            At that point as I was reading, it wasn't so puzzling, since metta bhāvana
            is a well known way to launch into first jhāna.

            At AN 1.382, it starts off reasonably enough, with the four jhanas as the
            objects of not "being devoid of jhāna", then mentions not just mettā
            bhāvana but all 4 brahmavihāras. Then it mentions the 4 satipatthana, 4
            aspects of right effort, all part o the samādhi group, so again not too
            surprising and still closely related to jhāna. Then it starts to enumerate
            more topics under "not devoid of jhana", what seems like most of the 37
            bodhipakkiya, and then even 10 kasinas for samatha development, vipassana
            themes, and it seems like everything and the kitchen sink.

            So what is meant by these passages on Jhāna?

            These are the possibilities I can think of:

            1. jhāna is meant here as meditation in general, and not specifically
            sammā samādhi definition for four jhānas.
            2. jhāna (as sammā samādhi) is a prerequisite to bring all of those
            meditation topics mention to their culmination.
            3. sammā samādhi, jhāna and the entirety of the eightfold noble path are
            closely intertwined, so that no part of the buddha's system of practice can
            be devoid of jhāna (sammā samādhi) if one expects to succeed.

            But none of those explanations feels very satisfying. Sometimes the suttas
            seem amazingly precise and specific, and other times like this example,
            vague and confounding.

            p.s. Nina, I posted my original question and this post as well on this page
            here in case the pali diacritics don't appear properly.

            https://sites.google.com/a/audtip.org/pali/pali-discussion-group-questions


            Metta,

            frank





            On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 9:36 AM, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > Dear Chanida and Frank,
            > Op 24-dec-2012, om 7:37 heeft Chanida het volgende geschreven:
            >
            >
            > > I think that in each of such practices, the practitioner's mind
            > > must be in some state of concentration, otherwise the practice
            > > cannot be done.
            > ------
            > N: As I understand, it is always right understanding that is
            > foremost, also when developing samatha to the stage of jhaana. If one
            > does not know the citta that arises, kusala or akusala, how could one
            > develop samatha.
            > As to the development of vipassanaa, insight, understanding of
            > whatever appears now is developed, so that one knows that it is just
            > a reality, a dhamma. Lobha may appear: it is just a reality. Sadness
            > may appear: it is just a reality, a dhamma. It is not owned by a
            > person, there is no person there. Visible object appears: it is only
            > a dhamma, not a person in the visible object. Very gradually we can
            > understand what anattaa means.
            > I cannot read the quoted text by Frank, it is all warbled. Neither
            > can I look up the text since I do not have yet Venerable Bodhi's
            > translation.
            > ------
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Piya Tan
            Dear Pali friends, A very happy new year. You can also read something about what Chanida has stated below in Gethin, The Buddhist Path of Awakening, 2001:
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 5, 2013
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              Dear Pali friends,

              A very happy new year.

              You can also read something about what Chanida has stated below in Gethin,
              "The Buddhist Path of Awakening," 2001: 269, where he says the list totals
              191 objects of meditation (Bodhi's latest tr of Anguttara however says the
              list is only 181 (A:B 1.394-574), ie the whole of the Accharra Sa.gghaa.ta
              Vagga.

              Aside, I wonder by the "World Tipitaka" of Bangkok is now offline.
              Previously, we click here:
              http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/
              we are able to access this excellent Tipitaka website. I hope it will get
              back online, or better, have a CD version like CSCD.

              With metta,

              Piya


              On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 6:15 AM, Chanida <jchanida@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Dear Nina and Frank,
              >
              > Thanks for your comment, Nina. If you have access to a PTS edition of the
              > Pali canon, I give book and page reference below so that you know which
              > passage Frank referred to.
              >
              > If I understood Frank correctly, his question involves the compound
              > 'arittajjhaano' (not devoid of jhaana) in the stock phrase "Arittajjhaano
              > viharati satthusaasanakaro ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m
              > bhu~njati" in Jhaana-vagga of AN volume I (AN I 38-43). Here the Buddha
              > said that a monk who pursues/develops any of the following practices, even
              > for a brief moment, is called 'a monk who is not devoid of jhaana, who acts
              > upon the teaching of the Teacher, who responds to his advice, who does not
              > eat the country's almsfood in vain.' The practices mentioned are: any level
              > of the four jhaanas, mettaa cetovimutti or else upto upekkkhaa cetovimutti,
              > any of the four foundations of mindfulness, chanda and viriya in regard to
              > any of the four padhaanas (sa.mvara-padhaana, pahaana-padhaana,
              > bhaavanaa-padhaana and anurakkhanaa-padhaana), etc.
              >
              > The same expression is found in AN I 10-11, where the same is said for a
              > monk who pursues/develops metta-citta.
              >
              > You can find these in Syamra.t.tha edition vol. 20 p. 20 and pp.50-55 and
              > in MMR Thai translation of Pali canon and commentaries book 32 pp.106-107
              > and book 33, pp.214-219.
              >
              > Frank asked whether all those practices can be considered 'jhaana' as
              > expressed by the compound 'arittajjhaano.' (Frank, please correct me if I
              > misunderstood your question.) My answer was that probably the term 'jhaana'
              > in the compound refers, not directly to those practices, but to the level
              > of necessary concentration associated with those practices.
              >
              > Here, I think the right view is already assumed, and the practices already
              > right-practices. Otherwise the Buddha would not have praised the
              > practitioner (monk) who pursues such practices as "satthu saasanakaro
              > ovaadapatikaro amogha.m ra.t.thapi.n.da.m bhu~njati"
              >
              > I wish you and all a Happy New Year. :)
              >
              > Metta,
              > Chanida
              >
              >
              >



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            • Frank K
              Dear Piya, This book looks like it s out of print. Amazon sells it for $70 USA dollars. Is there any plan to publish it as an ebook?
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 6, 2013
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                Dear Piya,

                This book looks like it's out of print. Amazon sells it for $70 USA
                dollars. Is there any plan to publish it as an ebook?
                http://www.amazon.com/The-Buddhist-Path-Awakening-Bodhi-Pakkhiya/dp/1851682856/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1357487408&sr=8-7&keywords=The+Buddhist+Path+of+Awakening

                Not long ago I asked Rod at Suttacentral about Worldtipitaka's Thai canon
                being offline. It's a known issue, he doesn't know when they will be back
                online, but that he hoped Suttacentral would have an alternative within a
                few weeks.

                Digital Pali reader has the thai tipitaka as an optional download, I don't
                know if it's the same version as World Tipitaka.

                Speaking of digital tipitaka's, I wonder why everyone doesn't get together,
                put the Burmese, Thai, Sri Lankan and whatever other pali versions of the
                tipitaka in one central repository, so it would be easy to have online
                tools that for example show in color the textual differences between the
                different tipitaka's.

                metta,
                Frank

                On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

                > The Buddhist Path of Awakening


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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