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Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii

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  • Dieter Moeller
    Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan), you wrote: N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 7 8:18 AM
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      Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),



      you wrote:

      N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
      > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

      Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
      property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
      taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

      Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
      destruction of passionate desire.


      D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals involved.



      SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.): Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

      "We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten us as to their meaning."

      Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

      snip ....

      Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

      "Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness."

      Pali text: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html



      Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say "Only the Buddha, no other teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

      and the point is "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. "

      "chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is an often used expression, addressed to the monks supposed to spread the teaching.(?)

      No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this combination in other suttas too..

      I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still missing ...



      with Metta Dieter




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Dieter, Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu Bodhi
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 8 4:47 AM
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        Dear Dieter,

        Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust" (Connected Discourses, page 858)


        Metta, Bryan




        ________________________________
        From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 12:48:18 PM
        Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


         
        Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),

        you wrote:

        N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
        > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

        Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
        property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
        taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

        Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
        destruction of passionate desire.

        D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals involved.

        SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.): Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

        "We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten us as to their meaning."

        Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

        snip ....

        Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

        "Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness."

        Pali text: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html

        Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say "Only the Buddha, no other teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

        and the point is "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. "

        "chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is an often used expression, addressed to the monks supposed to spread the teaching.(?)

        No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this combination in other suttas too..

        I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still missing ...

        with Metta Dieter

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Bryan and Dieter, ... N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 8 7:08 AM
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          Dear Bryan and Dieter,
          Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

          > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
          > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
          > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
          > desire and lust"
          -------
          N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
          bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
          function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
          who was...
          I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
          clearly in other grammars?
          Nina.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dieter Moeller
          Dear Nina and Bryan, you wrote : (B: Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 8 10:44 AM
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            Dear Nina and Bryan,

            you wrote :

            (B: Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
            > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of > desire and lust"
            -------
            N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause: who was...
            I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more clearly in other grammars?


            D: I wonder whether the search function of DPR is able to find compounds ..perhaps a splitting into chandaraaga and vinayakkhaayii may help (?).
            I suppose it is likely that Ven. Sariputta used this expression not only once.
            A German translation (P.Dahlke) stated "..die Ueberwindung der Willensgier " ( lit. the overcoming of the greed of will)

            B.T.W. interesting to note that Sariputta started his instruction with the root conditions and finished with suffering.

            with Metta Dieter

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bryan Levman
            Dear Nina, The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 9 6:12 AM
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              Dear Nina,


              The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

              So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").

              Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 138


              Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi.

              Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

              I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

              Metta, Bryan


              ________________________________
              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


               
              Dear Bryan and Dieter,
              Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

              > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
              > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
              > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
              > desire and lust"
              -------
              N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
              bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
              function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
              who was...
              I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
              clearly in other grammars?
              Nina.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear Nina, The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 9 6:13 AM
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                Dear Nina,

                The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

                So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi - which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").


                Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
                modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
                were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
                wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi.

                Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 139:
                ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto itipi.
                translated by Ñāṇamoli & Bodhi (233) as "Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one whose shaft has been lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar has been uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered, whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered."
                All of these compounds except for the last participle (visaṃyutto) are bahubbīhis, i. e. mostly kharmadhāryas modifying bhikkhu outside the compound. Notice how nouns that are ordinarily a different gender (like parikhā, which is fem.) , have a masc. ending to modify bhikkhu.




                Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

                I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

                Metta, Bryan



                ________________________________
                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                 
                Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                > desire and lust"
                -------
                N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                who was...
                I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                clearly in other grammars?
                Nina.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bryan Levman
                From: Bryan Levman To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42:49 AM Subject: Re: [Pali]
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 9 6:19 AM
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                  From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>

                  To: "Pali@yahoogroups.com" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42:49 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                   
                  Dear Nina,

                  The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

                  So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man"). 

                  Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
                  modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
                  were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
                  wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi. bahubbhiyā would take a fem. ending as it modifes a fem. noun.




                  Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 138
                  ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto itipi.
                  Translated by Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi (233)

                  "Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one whose shaft has been
                  lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar has been
                  uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered,
                  whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered.
                  Most of these are karmadhārayas acting as bahubbīhis, as they are modifying  bhikkhu outside the compound. Notice how a noun which is ordinarily fem. (parikhā) changes gender when it modifies the masc. noun bhikkhu (-parikho)



                  Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

                  I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

                  Metta, Bryan

                  ________________________________
                  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                   
                  Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                  Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                  > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                  > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                  > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                  > desire and lust"
                  -------
                  N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                  bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                  function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                  who was...
                  I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                  clearly in other grammars?
                  Nina.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Bryan, Thank you for your explanations, I shall keep them and study them. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 9 7:35 AM
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                    Dear Bryan,
                    Thank you for your explanations, I shall keep them and study them.
                    Nina.

                    Op 9-jul-2012, om 15:12 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                    > The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound
                    > ends in a noun



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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