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Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Bryan and Dieter, I have been puzzling and was hoping Bryan would answer. Dieter:
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 6, 2012
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      Dear Bryan and Dieter,
      I have been puzzling and was hoping Bryan would answer.
      Dieter: <["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

      Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."


      Op 6-jul-2012, om 14:21 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning
      > "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means
      > "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion
      > and desire" making it a tatpurusa (tappurisa) compound in the
      > accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to
      > these compounds see Warder, page 77-78.
      >
      --------
      N: Tappurisaa: the whole compound functions as a noun and any case
      relation may occur within it. As Bryan said: accusative and genitive.
      -------
      > B:For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.
      >
      ------
      N: suffix -in: possessive adjectives. sa~n~nii: having perception.
      Instead of subduing we can also say: destruction or discipline.
      ----
      Nina.



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    • Lennart Lopin
      Namo Buddhāya! Dear Dieter, This morning I happened to read Theragatha and saw the following verse which reminded me of your email: Paññaṃ imaṃ passa
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 6, 2012
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        Namo Buddhāya!

        Dear Dieter,

        This morning I happened to read Theragatha and saw the following verse
        which reminded me of your email:


        "Paññaṃ imaṃ passa tathāgatānaṃ, aggi yathā pajjalito nisīthe;
        Ālokadā cakkhudadā bhavanti, ye āgatānaṃ vinayanti kaṅkhan "ti. (*Thag. 3*)


        "See this wisdom of the Tathagatas, which shines in the middle of the night
        like a fire;

        They are providers of light and sight, who -for those that come to them
        (āgatānaṃ) - dispell (*vinayanti*) all doubt (*kaṅkhaṃ*).


        It makes it easy to understand what is meant by
        vinaya/vineti<http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.pali.1082258>in
        the compound
        *chandarāgavinaya *(which Bryan and Nina analyzed thoroughly!)

        metta,
        Lennart

        ==================

        > **
        >
        >
        > Dear Members,
        >
        > just discussed with friends from another list the translation of following
        > text:
        >
        > "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
        > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]
        >
        > this is the last proposition:
        >
        > chanda-raaga = passion and desire
        > vinaya = abolishing destruction, removal; norm of conduct, ethics,
        > morality, good behavior (page 623 PTS Dict)
        > akkhaayati = to be proclaimed (page 2 PTS Dict)
        > kho = indeed, really, surely (PTS Dict page 239)
        > no = indeed, then, now (PTS Dict page 378) (also "us" in Burmese Dict)
        > aavuso = friend (PTS Dict page 113)
        > sattha = to teach (PTS Dict page 674)
        >
        > it seems to me that 'vinayakkhaayii' refers to the proclaimed
        > discipline/order but then by what is 'subdduing ' expressed?
        >
        > with Metta Dieter
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


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      • Dieter Moeller
        Dear Bryan , thanks for your answer. Sorry , not yet clear to me. you wrote: akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning telling,
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 6, 2012
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          Dear Bryan ,

          thanks for your answer. Sorry , not yet clear to me.

          you wrote:

          'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa (tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to these compounds see Warder, page 77-78. For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.'


          You confirm what I supposed: 'vinayakkhaayii refers to 'proclaiming the discipline', hence, as you say : ' the compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" ' However that makes no sense .

          The text in question 'chandaràgavinayakkhàyã kho no àvuso, satthà'ti ' (Devadaha Sutta, S.N. 22.2) is translated by Sister Uppalavanna : "The Teacher tells us to tame interest and greed" and by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

          But where is 'subduing' respectively 'to tame' coming from?


          with Metta Dieter



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        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Dieter, The words subduing and to tame come from the word vinaya which is a noun meaning driving out, abolishing destruction, removal per the PED
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 6, 2012
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            Dear Dieter,

            The words" subduing" and "to tame" come from the word vinaya which is a noun meaning "driving out, abolishing destruction, removal" per the PED (as well as of course referring to the monk's discipline as an additional meaning). The word also has the sense of "discipline, control" (see Monier Williams dictionary) and is a derived form of the verb vi + nī. This verb means "to train, guide, educate, chastise, instruct, etc." See MW. So that's where Sister Uppalavanna and Thanissaro Bhikkhu are getting the words "subduing" and "to tame" from (although "taming" would be more accurate as vinaya is not an infintive form)

            I hope this is clear,

            Metta,

            Bryan




            ________________________________
            From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, July 6, 2012 11:12:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


             
            Dear Bryan ,

            thanks for your answer. Sorry , not yet clear to me.

            you wrote:

            'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective meaning "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa (tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen. (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to these compounds see Warder, page 77-78. For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder, page 122.'

            You confirm what I supposed: 'vinayakkhaayii refers to 'proclaiming the discipline', hence, as you say : ' the compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of passion and desire" ' However that makes no sense .

            The text in question 'chandaràgavinayakkhàyã kho no àvuso, satthà'ti ' (Devadaha Sutta, S.N. 22.2) is translated by Sister Uppalavanna : "The Teacher tells us to tame interest and greed" and by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

            But where is 'subduing' respectively 'to tame' coming from?

            with Metta Dieter

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dieter Moeller
            Dear Lennart, Nina and Bryan, thank you for the feedback which is an encouragement to ask the group for advise in case of occasional doubts . I think we may
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 6, 2012
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              Dear Lennart, Nina and Bryan,

              thank you for the feedback which is an encouragement to ask the group for advise in case of occasional doubts .
              I think we may agree about the meaning of the text : the Teacher proclaimed taming greed by (the) discipline . Subdue still a better choice than
              to remove (greed or passion) , as this term misses the point that the training of the Noble Path is needed , i.e. not only sila, but samadhi and panna as well.
              Being an amateur of Pali language study , I better be careful with an opinion but I wonder about the connection with vineti , which - if I get that correctly from the entrees of PTS- provides only a chance of 1:86 .

              with Metta Dieter






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            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Dieter ... N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire. ... Who is the
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 7, 2012
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                Dear Dieter
                Op 6-jul-2012, om 15:42 heeft Dieter Moeller het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > Bryan:'akkhāyii is the masc. sing. of akhāyin, an adjective
                > meaning "telling, relating, announcing" per the PED, so the
                > compound means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the
                > disicipline of passion and desire" making it a tatpurusa
                > (tappurisa) compound in the accusative (vinayam) and gen.
                > (chadaragaana.m). For an intro to these compounds see Warder, page
                > 77-78. For words ending in -in, see Geiger section 95 and Warder,
                > page 122.'
                >
                > Dieter: You confirm what I supposed: 'vinayakkhaayii refers to
                > 'proclaiming the discipline', hence, as you say : ' the compound
                > means "our teacher is telling (proclaiming) the disicipline of
                > passion and desire" ' However that makes no sense .
                > ---------
                >
                N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text:
                "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
                > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

                Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation.
                Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
                property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or
                destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
                taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is
                unique of him.

                Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our
                teacher, friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
                destruction of passionate desire.

                -------

                Nina.




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dieter Moeller
                Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan), you wrote: N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 7, 2012
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                  Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),



                  you wrote:

                  N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
                  > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

                  Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
                  property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
                  taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

                  Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
                  destruction of passionate desire.


                  D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals involved.



                  SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.): Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

                  "We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten us as to their meaning."

                  Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

                  snip ....

                  Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

                  "Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness."

                  Pali text: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html



                  Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say "Only the Buddha, no other teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

                  and the point is "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. "

                  "chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is an often used expression, addressed to the monks supposed to spread the teaching.(?)

                  No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this combination in other suttas too..

                  I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still missing ...



                  with Metta Dieter




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Bryan Levman
                  Dear Dieter, Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu Bodhi
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 8, 2012
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                    Dear Dieter,

                    Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of desire and lust" (Connected Discourses, page 858)


                    Metta, Bryan




                    ________________________________
                    From: Dieter Moeller <moellerdieter@...>
                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, July 7, 2012 12:48:18 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                     
                    Dear Nina (Lennart and Bryan),

                    you wrote:

                    N: It would make it easier if you indicate the context of your text: "Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion and desire."
                    > ["chandaraagavinayakkhaayii kho no, aavuso, satthaa"]

                    Who is the teacher, the Buddha? If so it influences our translation. Akkhaayii, this is a possessive adjective, it is an attribute or
                    property of the teacher. What is he proclaining? The dispelling or destruction of passionate desire. Only the Buddha, no other teachers,
                    taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements. This is unique of him.

                    Perhaps the text will be more understandable in this way: our teacher, friend, is someone who really (indeed) proclaims the
                    destruction of passionate desire.

                    D: you are right , I should have provided the context as well .. one may not automatically assume Teacher= Buddha , and - not less important-the individuals involved.

                    SN 22.2 excerpt (T.B.): Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?' Have you listened well to the teachings - grasped them well, attended to them well, considered them well, penetrated them well by means of discernment - so that in answering you will speak in line with what the Blessed One has said, will not misrepresent the Blessed One with what is unfactual, will answer in line with the Dhamma, and no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you?"

                    "We would come from a long way away to hear the explication of these words in Ven. Sariputta's presence. It would be good if Ven. Sariputta himself would enlighten us as to their meaning."

                    Ven. Sariputta said: "Friends, in foreign lands there are wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives - for the people there are wise & discriminating - who will question a monk: 'What is your teacher's doctrine? What does he teach?'"Thus asked, you should answer, 'Our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire.'

                    snip ....

                    Having thus been answered, there may be wise nobles & priests, householders & contemplatives... who will question you further, 'And seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing what benefit does your teacher teach the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness?'

                    "Thus asked, you should answer, 'When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for form, then with any change & alteration in that form, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. When one is free from passion... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications... When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for consciousness, then with any change & alteration in that consciousness, there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. Seeing this benefit, our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for form... for feeling... for perception... for fabrications. Seeing this benefit our teacher teaches the subduing of passion & desire for consciousness."

                    Pali text: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta3/21-Khandha-Samyutta/01-01-Nakulapituvaggo-p.html

                    Clear,the Buddha is meant ..as you say "Only the Buddha, no other teachers,taught the way leading to the destruction of defilements."

                    and the point is "When one is free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for .. (5 khandhas).. there does not arise any sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, or despair. "

                    "chandaraagavinayakkhaayii " is written in one word, so I wonder whether it is an often used expression, addressed to the monks supposed to spread the teaching.(?)

                    No entry in PTS dictionary , but I would not be surprised to find this combination in other suttas too..

                    I.M.H.O. an 'elegant' translation is still missing ...

                    with Metta Dieter

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Bryan and Dieter, ... N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 8, 2012
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                      Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                      Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                      > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                      > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                      > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                      > desire and lust"
                      -------
                      N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                      bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                      function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                      who was...
                      I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                      clearly in other grammars?
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dieter Moeller
                      Dear Nina and Bryan, you wrote : (B: Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 8, 2012
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                        Dear Nina and Bryan,

                        you wrote :

                        (B: Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                        > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of > desire and lust"
                        -------
                        N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause: who was...
                        I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more clearly in other grammars?


                        D: I wonder whether the search function of DPR is able to find compounds ..perhaps a splitting into chandaraaga and vinayakkhaayii may help (?).
                        I suppose it is likely that Ven. Sariputta used this expression not only once.
                        A German translation (P.Dahlke) stated "..die Ueberwindung der Willensgier " ( lit. the overcoming of the greed of will)

                        B.T.W. interesting to note that Sariputta started his instruction with the root conditions and finished with suffering.

                        with Metta Dieter

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bryan Levman
                        Dear Nina, The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 9, 2012
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                          Dear Nina,


                          The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

                          So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").

                          Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 138


                          Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi.

                          Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

                          I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

                          Metta, Bryan


                          ________________________________
                          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                           
                          Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                          Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                          > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                          > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                          > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                          > desire and lust"
                          -------
                          N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                          bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                          function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                          who was...
                          I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                          clearly in other grammars?
                          Nina.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bryan Levman
                          Dear Nina, The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 9, 2012
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                            Dear Nina,

                            The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

                            So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi - which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man").


                            Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
                            modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
                            were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
                            wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi.

                            Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 139:
                            ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto itipi.
                            translated by Ñāṇamoli & Bodhi (233) as "Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one whose shaft has been lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar has been uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered, whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered."
                            All of these compounds except for the last participle (visaṃyutto) are bahubbīhis, i. e. mostly kharmadhāryas modifying bhikkhu outside the compound. Notice how nouns that are ordinarily a different gender (like parikhā, which is fem.) , have a masc. ending to modify bhikkhu.




                            Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

                            I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

                            Metta, Bryan



                            ________________________________
                            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                             
                            Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                            Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                            > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                            > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                            > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                            > desire and lust"
                            -------
                            N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                            bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                            function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                            who was...
                            I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                            clearly in other grammars?
                            Nina.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bryan Levman
                            From: Bryan Levman To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42:49 AM Subject: Re: [Pali]
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 9, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>

                              To: "Pali@yahoogroups.com" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, July 9, 2012 10:42:49 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                               
                              Dear Nina,

                              The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound ends in a noun (Whitney 1292) which functions as an adjective. Most -in words are adjectives (Warder 122) and I believe khāyin is, therefore this compound would be a tappurisa, as there is a case relation between the components of the compound ("proclaiming + accus. vinayaṃ + gen. chandarāgānaṃ). If they are in the same case, then it is called a karmadhāraya. Either of these can be a bahubbīhi if they end with a noun and are used as an adjective to describe another noun outside the compound.

                              So if you take the word "bahu-bbhīhi," it is a karmadhāraya meaning "much rice" as bahu- and -bbīhi are in the same case. One might then say bahubbīhi dese atthi ("there is much rice in the country) and here it is simply a karmadhāraya.  But if one then uses the compound to describe another noun in a possessive way, it becomes what is called a possessive compound (bahubbīhi which is how it got its name): bahubbīhi puriso dānaṃ dadāti ("the man who possesses much rice, gives charity"). These compounds are to be understood in a possessive sense and are to be dissolved as yassa bahubbīhi atthi, so bahubbīhi... ("the person who has much rice is called a 'much-rice' man"). 

                              Since the bahubbīhi ends in a noun, but is used as an adjective, if it
                              modifies a noun in a different gender, then it changes gender. So it it
                              were in the dative modifying kaññā as in the sentence "he gave the
                              wealthy (who had much rice) girl a book"  it would be  so bahubbīhiyā  kaññāya ganthaṃ adāsi. bahubbhiyā would take a fem. ending as it modifes a fem. noun.




                              Descriptions of the Buddha and the bhikkhus are full of bahubbīhis, e.g. in MN 1, 138
                              ayaṃ vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu ukkhittapaligho itipi, saṃkiṇṇaparikkho itipi, abbūḷhesiko itipi, niraggaḷo itipi, ariyo pannaddhajo pannabhāro visaṃyutto itipi.
                              Translated by Ñāṇamoli and Bodhi (233)

                              "Bhikkhus, this bhikkhu is called one whose shaft has been
                              lifted, whose trench has been filled in, whose pillar has been
                              uprooted, one who has no bar, a noble one whose banner is lowered,
                              whose burden is lowered, who is unfettered.
                              Most of these are karmadhārayas acting as bahubbīhis, as they are modifying  bhikkhu outside the compound. Notice how a noun which is ordinarily fem. (parikhā) changes gender when it modifies the masc. noun bhikkhu (-parikho)



                              Whitney has a good description of all the compounds starting at section 1262 and the bahuvrīhi (Skt.) starting on section 1292. He calls a tatpuruṣa (tappurisa) a "dependent compound" (where there is a case relation between the parts of the compound) and a karmadhāraya a "descriptive compound" (where they are in the same case) and either of these, if ending in a noun and modifying another noun outside the compound can be a bahuvrīhi (bahubbīhi). Unfortunately compounds can be confusing and everybody has his/her own terminology which makes it even more confusing. 

                              I don't have Collins' grammar in front of me, but I believe he has a description of the compounds therein. Hope this helps,

                              Metta, Bryan

                              ________________________________
                              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, July 8, 2012 11:38:22 AM
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] vinayakkhaayii


                               
                              Dear Bryan and Dieter,
                              Op 8-jul-2012, om 13:47 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                              > Thanks for the context. According to the DPR search (Digital Pali
                              > Reader) it only occurs in the Devdaha sutta that you quote. Bhikkhu
                              > Bodhi tranlsates "Our teacher, friends, teaches the removal of
                              > desire and lust"
                              -------
                              N: chandaraagavinayakkhaayii: is it possible that this is a
                              bahubbiihi compound? It qualifies the teacher. Warder p. 137, they
                              function as adjectives. It is always equivalent to a relative clause:
                              who was...
                              I always have trouble with compounds. Perhaps it is explained more
                              clearly in other grammars?
                              Nina.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Nina van Gorkom
                              Dear Bryan, Thank you for your explanations, I shall keep them and study them. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jul 9, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear Bryan,
                                Thank you for your explanations, I shall keep them and study them.
                                Nina.

                                Op 9-jul-2012, om 15:12 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                                > The only thing that Warder leaves out is that a bahubbīhi compound
                                > ends in a noun



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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