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Re: [Pali] Digest Number 3147

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  • Mrigendra Pratap
    Hi, friends, Sithilahanu means Stork, and Stork is called in Hindi language Bagulaa . it is very common bird in north India. It looks like similar with Crane
    Message 1 of 5 , May 26, 2012
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      Hi, friends,

      Sithilahanu means Stork, and Stork is called in Hindi language "Bagulaa" . it is very common bird in north India. It looks like similar with Crane but it is smaller than Crane. It is of white color and it likes to eat fishes. It catches the fishes with full concentration that's why there are many traditional story give the examples of this bird .......to .become aware like this bird.

      Thanks,
      Mrigendra



      ________________________________
      From: "Pali@yahoogroups.com" <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, 21 May 2012 3:38 PM
      Subject: [Pali] Digest Number 3147

      There are 4 messages in this issue.

      Topics in this digest:

      1a. Re: sithilahanu   
          From: SARAH CONNELL
      1b. Re: sithilahanu   
          From: Kumara Bhikkhu
      1c. Re: sithilahanu   
          From: jayarava
      1d. Re: sithilahanu   
          From: Bryan Levman


      Messages
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1a. Re: sithilahanu
          Posted by: "SARAH CONNELL" dhammasanna@... dhammasanna
          Date: Sun May 20, 2012 6:06 am ((PDT))

      My P-E dictionary is TW Rhys Davids/W Stede. It lists Sithila as: loose, lax,
      bending, yielding and Hanu as: jaw. It references sithilahanu as: a kind of
      bird. As you pointed out it is used only once in the Canon at M I.429 I'm sorry
      I could not be more helpful.
       
      May you be well and happy and always smiling,
       
       Sarah Jane




      ________________________________
      From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 10:41:14 AM
      Subject: [Pali] sithilahanu

       
      In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also
      'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including
      electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names;
      Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've
      tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork'
      (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic
      tipitika. I even checked Childers!


      Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated.
      Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".

      As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M
      i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m
      naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa
      ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do
      they?).

      sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other
      reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says
      "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in
      Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).


      Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined
      as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?

      Many thanks
      Jayarava




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      Messages in this topic (6)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1b. Re: sithilahanu
          Posted by: "Kumara Bhikkhu" kumara.bhikkhu@... venkumara
          Date: Sun May 20, 2012 6:07 am ((PDT))

      When I saw 'slack jawed', my mind imagined a pelican, but is it native to India?

      jayarava wrote thus at 20:13 27/04/2012:
      >In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also 'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names; Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork' (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic tipitika. I even checked Childers!
      >
      >Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated. Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".
      >
      >As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do they?).
      >
      >sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).
      >
      >Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?
      >
      >Many thanks
      >Jayarava






      Messages in this topic (6)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1c. Re: sithilahanu
          Posted by: "jayarava" jayarava@... jayarava
          Date: Sun May 20, 2012 6:14 am ((PDT))

      Bryan

      Thanks. Do you have the Taisho reference for that Agama text? I'd like to look at it.

      Some websites have the Hindi name of the openbilled stork as "Naththai Kuththi Narai" (but I can't make sense of this transliteration - I'm not convinced it's even Hindi). I've sent emails to Indian bird websites to try to get local names, and await replies. Hopefully I won't die before I get the information ;-)

      Regards
      Jayarava







      Messages in this topic (6)
      ________________________________________________________________________
      1d. Re: sithilahanu
          Posted by: "Bryan Levman" bryan.levman@... bryan.levman
          Date: Sun May 20, 2012 11:43 am ((PDT))

      Hi Jayarava,

      Yes, it's T01n0026_p0805a11, the end of the list along with the other birds whose feathers might furnish the arrow. Let us know if you find anything,

      Metta, Bryan





      ________________________________
      From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:18:10 AM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: sithilahanu


       
      Bryan

      Thanks. Do you have the Taisho reference for that Agama text? I'd like to look at it.

      Some websites have the Hindi name of the openbilled stork as "Naththai Kuththi Narai" (but I can't make sense of this transliteration - I'm not convinced it's even Hindi). I've sent emails to Indian bird websites to try to get local names, and await replies. Hopefully I won't die before I get the information ;-)

      Regards
      Jayarava




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      Messages in this topic (6)



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    • jayarava
      Hi Mrigendra There many storks, cranes, and herons in India. The one we re talking about--the open billed stork--feeds almost exclusively on snails. It has a
      Message 2 of 5 , May 28, 2012
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        Hi Mrigendra

        There many storks, cranes, and herons in India. The one we're talking about--the open billed stork--feeds almost exclusively on snails. It has a white head, neck and body but a black tail and wing tips. It's beak has a gap between upper and lower parts when closed. In Hindi it is called gungla, ghonghila or ghungil. Cf. ENVIS Centre on Avian Ecology list of Vernacular Names of Indian Birds:
        http://bnhsenvis.nic.in/Vernacular%20Names%20of%20Birds.html

        Bagulaa properly refers to a bird with a black body and white head and neck, the 'white necked stork'. ENVIS lists the Sanskrit name of this bird as Shwetakanth mahabak - ie. ^sveta-ka.n.tha mahaabaka 'white throated great heron'. I might add that this has no Pali equivalent.

        The link between the Pali name sithilahanu and the stork seems to be based on a fallacy initiated by Raghu Vira in 1949. But rather than discuss it here I will post a link to my research when I blog it on Fri. (It involves Devanagari and Bengali script, as well as Chinese characters and Unicode diacritics). Unfortunately the meaning of sithilahanu seems to be lost, but I'd be happy to hear from anyone who could definitely say otherwise.

        Regards
        Jayarava
      • jayarava
        I ve published my blog in which I explore a passage from the Culamalunkya Sutta (M 63)--this is the one where the man won t be treated for his arrow wound
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 1, 2012
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          I've published my blog in which I explore a passage from the Culamalunkya Sutta (M 63)--this is the one where the man won't be treated for his arrow wound without knowing all the details of the archer and his equipment. It was the details that caught my attention (yes, I know...)

          http://jayarava.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/irrelevant-details.html

          Puzzled by the available translations I started to dissect the Pali, both mula and attakatha, and discovered a number of oddities.

          Earlier I asked about the word 'sithilahanu' and it's connection with the 'stork'. My conclusion is that the connection is a fallacy perpetuated by some rather well known scholars. Sadly I think this one of word is lost to us, as is 'semhaara'. But I think I might have resurrected a couple of words from obscurity, by thinking in terms of archery instead of the metaphysics (though to be fair the main point of the sutta is metaphysical).

          Following Bryan Levman's suggestion I went through the parallel Chinese text and picked out the key words for comparison, though in this case it wasn't much help since the Chinese appear largely to have substituted familiar materials for the unfamiliar Indian ones. I've included all my notes on comparisons with the Pali terminology, for anyone who might be interested.

          Regards
          Jayarava
        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Jayarava, I ve read your very detailed entry on this passage and it is very impressive! I too agree that (as they say in architecture) God is in the
          Message 4 of 5 , Jun 3, 2012
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            Dear Jayarava,

            I've read your very detailed entry on this passage and it is very impressive! I too agree that (as they say in architecture) "God is in the details." All we have is the words, so it is imperative that we understand them properly and preserve their meanings. As Norman says, our first job is to understand what the words mean, and why they mean what they mean.

            A few comments:

            1) sallakattam; the only phonological explanation for the -tt- is if the geminate replaced an original conjunct consonant. The only one that would be contextually relevant is the noun karta which means "hole, cavity." It is an old Rig Vedic word; if this is the -katta in sallakatta, it would mean "hole of the arrow," but this still does not make sense grammatically as object of upaṭṭhapeyyuṃ (unless we treat it as a bahubbīhi - yassa katto sallena atthi- "whose hole (wound) is by an arrow."

            That also assumes upaṭṭhapeyyuṃ can take two objects. "They summoned the doctor to the one whose wound was (made by) an arrow.

             In the Concise Pali-English Dictionary, Buddhadatta gives sallakatta as "surgeon" which, if correct, would then be in apposition to bhisakkaṃ (physician). He does not give any etymology. In this case the meaning would simply be "They summoned a physician, a surgeon." In  any case, if sallakatta really does carry the meaning "surgeon," it is probably a metaphor for the original meaning of "arrow-wound;" meaning "he who looks after arrow-wounds."

            2) kodaṇḍa is not a cross-bow, but a native bow as used by the indigenous peoples whom the Aryan in-migrants encountered when they entered India. It is believed to be a word of Munda origin (one of the indigenous peoples of north-eastern, sub-Himalayan India which spoke an Austro-Asiatic, not an Aryan, language). ko- is a well-known Munda prefix.
            For details on the word see F. B. J. Kuiper, Proto-Munda Words in Sanskrit (Amsterdam: N.V. Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers Maatschappij, 1948), page 78 and Michael Witzel, "Substrate Languages in Old Indo-Aryan (Ṛgvedic, Middle and Late Vedic)", Electronic Journal for Vedic Studies, 5 (1999), 16. Even Mayrhofer (who  tries hard to find Aryan etymologies in all Old Indic words), calls daṇḍa "a contested, still undecided etymological problem." However, many of these Vedic words with the -ṇḍa- component are believed to be of non-Indo-Aryan origin, as Indo Aryan did not originally contain retroflex consonants but borrowed them from either Munda or Dravidian.  See Also Alfred C. Woolner, "Prakritic and non-Aryan Strata in the Vocabulary of Sanskrit",  Sir Asutosh Memorial Volume (Patna, 1926-1928): 65-71.

            3) On the Chinese translations. Many of these are not translations, but transliterations; obviously the translator did not know the meaning of the word or did not have a translation for it (as it was an Indian indigenous species with no native Chinese equivalent) so he/she transliterated the original Prakrit. Enough studies have been done now, so that we know the original language was a Prakrit, and one which preserved the original palatal and retroflex sibilants, as you pointed out with respect ot śala. For a recent study on what the source language is (and whether it is Gāndhārī which a lot of scholars beleive) see Boucher, Daniel. 1998. "Gāndhārī and the early
            Chinese Buddhist translations reconsidered: the case of the Saddharmapuṇḍarīkasūtra." Journal of the American Oriental Society 118, no.4: 471-506. In order to decode the Chinese one needs to know what the phonetic value of Middle Chinese is (the recipient language into which the Prakrit was translated). For this I use Edwin G. Pulleyblank, Lexicon of Reconstructed Pronunciation in Early Middle Chinese, Late Middle Chinese, and Early Mandarin (Vancouver: UBC Press, 1991). duō luó wood, for example, (多羅木) is the tala (palmyra) tree, duo = ta in Middle Chinese phonetics and luo = la, which you can find in Pulleyblank's book.  Shě luó wood 舍羅木 (pronounced sha-la in Middle Chinese) is probably the bamboo (Skt. śalākā). You may be able to resolve some of the other mysteries by referring to this helpful work.

            Hope the above helps in your studies. Keep up the fascinating (and valuable!) work,

            Metta, Bryan




            ________________________________
            From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, June 1, 2012 4:22:35 AM
            Subject: [Pali] Pali archery terms [was Sithilahanu]


             
            I've published my blog in which I explore a passage from the Culamalunkya Sutta (M 63)--this is the one where the man won't be treated for his arrow wound without knowing all the details of the archer and his equipment. It was the details that caught my attention (yes, I know...)

            http://jayarava.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/irrelevant-details.html

            Puzzled by the available translations I started to dissect the Pali, both mula and attakatha, and discovered a number of oddities.

            Earlier I asked about the word 'sithilahanu' and it's connection with the 'stork'. My conclusion is that the connection is a fallacy perpetuated by some rather well known scholars. Sadly I think this one of word is lost to us, as is 'semhaara'. But I think I might have resurrected a couple of words from obscurity, by thinking in terms of archery instead of the metaphysics (though to be fair the main point of the sutta is metaphysical).

            Following Bryan Levman's suggestion I went through the parallel Chinese text and picked out the key words for comparison, though in this case it wasn't much help since the Chinese appear largely to have substituted familiar materials for the unfamiliar Indian ones. I've included all my notes on comparisons with the Pali terminology, for anyone who might be interested.

            Regards
            Jayarava




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jayarava
            Thanks so much for these insights Bryan. I could wish that Yahoo did Unicode, but I think most of it is clear. I ll edit the article tomorrow to reflect your
            Message 5 of 5 , Jun 5, 2012
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              Thanks so much for these insights Bryan. I could wish that Yahoo did Unicode, but I think most of it is clear. I'll edit the article tomorrow to reflect your input.

              Best Wishes
              Jayarava
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