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sithilahanu

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  • jayarava
    In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as stork . Piya Tan also stork . However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including
    Message 1 of 6 , Apr 27, 2012
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      In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also 'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names; Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork' (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic tipitika. I even checked Childers!

      Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated. Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".

      As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do they?).

      sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).

      Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?

      Many thanks
      Jayarava
    • SARAH CONNELL
      My P-E dictionary is TW Rhys Davids/W Stede. It lists Sithila as: loose, lax, bending, yielding and Hanu as: jaw. It references sithilahanu as: a kind of
      Message 2 of 6 , May 18 10:08 AM
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        My P-E dictionary is TW Rhys Davids/W Stede. It lists Sithila as: loose, lax,
        bending, yielding and Hanu as: jaw. It references sithilahanu as: a kind of
        bird. As you pointed out it is used only once in the Canon at M I.429 I'm sorry
        I could not be more helpful.
         
        May you be well and happy and always smiling,
         
         Sarah Jane




        ________________________________
        From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, May 18, 2012 10:41:14 AM
        Subject: [Pali] sithilahanu

         
        In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also
        'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including
        electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names;
        Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've
        tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork'
        (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic
        tipitika. I even checked Childers!


        Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated.
        Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".

        As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M
        i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m
        naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa
        ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do
        they?).

        sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other
        reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says
        "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in
        Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).


        Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined
        as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?

        Many thanks
        Jayarava




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Kumara Bhikkhu
        When I saw slack jawed , my mind imagined a pelican, but is it native to India?
        Message 3 of 6 , May 18 8:26 PM
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          When I saw 'slack jawed', my mind imagined a pelican, but is it native to India?

          jayarava wrote thus at 20:13 27/04/2012:
          >In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also 'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names; Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork' (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic tipitika. I even checked Childers!
          >
          >Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated. Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".
          >
          >As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do they?).
          >
          >sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).
          >
          >Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?
          >
          >Many thanks
          >Jayarava
        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Jayarava, Good question; I can t find anything either. The Chinese Āgama translate it as 鶴 (he) which means crane and indeed a stork, I believe is a
          Message 4 of 6 , May 19 6:33 AM
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            Dear Jayarava,


            Good question; I can't find anything either. The Chinese Āgama translate it as 鶴 (he) which means "crane" and indeed a stork, I believe is a kind of crane or heron, but none of the standard Pāli words for crane or heron come close to sithila-hanu "slack-jaw."  It looks like a loan translation (calque) from another language or a colloquial term for the bird, which was translated literally, as the "loose-bill" is one of the characteristics of this bird.

            So Nanamoli and Bodhi's translation is probably just an inference from the bahubbihi.

            "Slack-jaw" is an English word menaing "tiresome and impertinent talk" and there is always the possibility that it had a similar meaning in Middle Indic, and it is just being used as a synonym for "etc." (as it comes last in the list). In the context it would make sense ("don't take out the arrow until I know what kind of feathers the shaft was made with - vulture, heron, hawk, peacock, or other irrelevant hypothesizing ), although a stretch...

            Perhaps someone else has some suggestions?

            Bryan





            ________________________________
            From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 8:13:57 AM
            Subject: [Pali] sithilahanu


             
            In M 63 Nanamoli and Bodhi translate sithilahanu as 'stork'. Piya Tan also 'stork'. However I can find no authority for this. I have checked PED, including electronically searching for 'stork'; the Dictionary of Pali Names; Buddhadatta's P-E and E-P dictionaries (sv. stork he gives 'bakavisesa'. I've tried Sanskrit equivalents in MW and Apte, and Apte's S-E dictionary sv. 'stork' (nothing similar). I checked the VRI dictionary that comes with their electronic tipitika. I even checked Childers!

            Other translators Thomas (1913) and Gethin (2008) leave the word untranslated. Horner (1954-9) "some other bird".

            As far as I can make out the word sithilahanu occurs only once in the Canon (M i.429); then once in the commentary on this passage (where it just says eva.m naamakassa pakkhino); and once in the sub-commentary (Sithilahanu naama dattaa ka.n.no pata"ngo [= ear bird?]). Neither of which translate to 'stork' (do they?).

            sithila-hanu would translate as something like 'slack jawed', and the only other reference I can find on the web is Shravasti Dhammika's blog where he says "Open-billed Storks, sithilahanu in Pali."(http://sdhammika.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/konch.html).

            Can anyone point me to a dictionary or other source where sithilahanu is defined as 'stork', or explain why Bodhi/Piya Tan translate it this way?

            Many thanks
            Jayarava




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jayarava
            Bryan Thanks. Do you have the Taisho reference for that Agama text? I d like to look at it. Some websites have the Hindi name of the openbilled stork as
            Message 5 of 6 , May 20 4:18 AM
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              Bryan

              Thanks. Do you have the Taisho reference for that Agama text? I'd like to look at it.

              Some websites have the Hindi name of the openbilled stork as "Naththai Kuththi Narai" (but I can't make sense of this transliteration - I'm not convinced it's even Hindi). I've sent emails to Indian bird websites to try to get local names, and await replies. Hopefully I won't die before I get the information ;-)

              Regards
              Jayarava
            • Bryan Levman
              Hi Jayarava, Yes, it s T01n0026_p0805a11, the end of the list along with the other birds whose feathers might furnish the arrow. Let us know if you find
              Message 6 of 6 , May 20 11:43 AM
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                Hi Jayarava,

                Yes, it's T01n0026_p0805a11, the end of the list along with the other birds whose feathers might furnish the arrow. Let us know if you find anything,

                Metta, Bryan





                ________________________________
                From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2012 7:18:10 AM
                Subject: [Pali] Re: sithilahanu


                 
                Bryan

                Thanks. Do you have the Taisho reference for that Agama text? I'd like to look at it.

                Some websites have the Hindi name of the openbilled stork as "Naththai Kuththi Narai" (but I can't make sense of this transliteration - I'm not convinced it's even Hindi). I've sent emails to Indian bird websites to try to get local names, and await replies. Hopefully I won't die before I get the information ;-)

                Regards
                Jayarava




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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