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anenjasapaya sutta com

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  • Ong Teng Kee
    dear Rob, You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn t read this sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but samathayanika with
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 7, 2003
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      dear Rob,
      You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try attain nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It can sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes when we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first jhana,second jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment in the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
      Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in com but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by upacara /jhana in dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara as mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they are samathayanika too but just upacara.
      I would say thess are all tentavive comclusions because books are missing.


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
      Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 22:03:57 -0000
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Pali] Re: New Pali Tipitaka Project

      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Look at mahasi and nyanuttara who even overlook buudhaghosa did not
      > recommed sukkhavipassaka for everyone but reject it.(a fact that
      > sujato did not know)
      > >
      > _____________
      > Dear teng kee,
      > I looked over the book by Nyanuttara many years back so can't
      > remember details, I think I disagreed with some points. But I don't
      > remember them claiming that sukkhavipassaka was for everyone: rather
      > that at this time, late in the sasana, that those who attain will do
      > so by sukkhavipassaka. We can see this indicated by some commentaries
      > where they say that the arahants with 4 discrimnations will be
      > present for a shorter period (a thousand years according to some)
      > than the sukkhavipassaka arahants.
      >
      > ___________
      > "Mahasi said so many time sukkavipasaka is an easier way
      > for everyone.We are overlooking the fact if we didn't check the books"
      > _________
      > It wasn't exactly hard for those like Bahiya or Sariputta - if we
      > look at their last life only- who were not sukkhavipassaka . But
      > considering their countless past lives perfecting the parami needed
      > to be such great ones...
      > I think it is harder to become 'released both ways' than
      > sukkhavipassaka in the sense that it takes more parami developed over
      > more lifetimes to become released both ways.
      > RobertK
      >
      >
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      >
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      >
      >

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    • rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com>
      ... sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be easier,how can it be
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 7, 2003
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        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
        > dear Rob,
        > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
        sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
        samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be
        easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try attain
        nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
        even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It can
        sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes when
        we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first jhana,second
        jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment in
        the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
        __________

        Dear Teng kee,
        When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he mean
        that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
        The Netti-pakarana (587)
        "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa
        Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
        vipassanam upadassati.
        Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
        The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
        faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
        blunt
        faculties."

        In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
        mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)

        I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
        master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
        attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't count
        as mastery).


        > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in com
        but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
        sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by upacara /jhana in
        dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara as
        mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they are
        samathayanika too but just upacara.

        This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it would
        be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to study
        what you write on it.
        RobertK
        > mail.com/lavalife
      • Ong Teng Kee
        Dear Rob, Buddhaghosa get the idea from Asubha and sasankhara sutta in AN 4 patipada vagga wherby jhana sukha will be helpful to those emerge from it.See the
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 8, 2003
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          Dear Rob,
          Buddhaghosa get the idea from Asubha and sasankhara sutta in AN 4 patipada vagga wherby jhana sukha will be helpful to those emerge from it.See the sutta first.It is not com idea but buddha .
          See page 309 easier/time saving, pg 229 nowhere in tipitaka said that jhana attainer will be easier /quaiker in Nyanuttara book. All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
          You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly from buddha but insigh is.Think about this sutta com but we do not have tika on it.
          the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We need to
          use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the harder way.
          The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
          Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.




          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
          Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com

          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
          > > dear Rob,
          > > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
          > sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
          > samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will be
          > easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try attain
          > nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
          > even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It can
          > sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes when
          > we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first jhana,second
          > jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment in
          > the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
          > __________
          >
          > Dear Teng kee,
          > When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he mean
          > that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
          > The Netti-pakarana (587)
          > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati, majjhindriyassa
          > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
          > vipassanam upadassati.
          > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
          > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
          > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
          > blunt
          > faculties."
          >
          > In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
          > mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
          >
          > I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
          > master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
          > attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't count
          > as mastery).
          >
          >
          > > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in com
          > but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
          > sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by upacara /jhana in
          > dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara as
          > mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they are
          > samathayanika too but just upacara.
          >
          > This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it would
          > be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to study
          > what you write on it.
          > RobertK
          > > mail.com/lavalife
          >
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
          > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >

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        • rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@yahoo.com>
          ... asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit hard to accept
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 9, 2003
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            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
            > Dear Rob,
            > All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was
            asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said
            sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit
            hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
            ______________
            Dear Teng kee,
            Ledi sayadaw was a great teacher but controversial in some areas
            (such as his disagreements with a few parts of the commentary to the
            Abhidhammathasangaha). I did a search and found some statements by
            him:
            1.
            http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/T/Thynn/LivMedLivIn/livme
            d_2.htm
            The Path of Sukkhavipassaka
            Samatha practices such as anapanasati meditations on the breath are
            not particularly necessary on the Path of Sukkhavipassaka. Together
            with observance of the three sila (moral precepts), panna (wisdom)
            can be developed. When the two panna factors develop, the three
            samadhi factors are also developed concomitantly. This is known as
            pañcangika magga. Herein Five Path factors are together integratedly
            developed. In conjunction with the three sila factors, they make up
            the Noble Eightfold Path.
            Practicing this Path will also relieve mental afflictions. To
            practice this path requires a high level of intelligence, effort and
            perseverance.""Ledi Sayadaw (Magganga Dipani)
            His last statement here is perhaps what leads you to think he said
            sukkhavipassaka was the hardest way. But maybe we could read it that
            all ways take great intelligence, effort and perseverance. Also
            someone that has the extraordinarily great parami to attain mastery
            of jhana and use this as the basis might have an easier task when we
            consider this life only. As I mentioned in my earlier post that
            doesn't take account of the many lives they had spent developing
            skills in both vipassana and samatha.
            ________


            2:http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6h.htm
            "I shall now show the way of sotapatti-magga in lokuttara-magganga.
            It should be remembered that this book is aimed at the lowest of the
            ariya, namely the 'bon-sin-san' sukkhavipassaka-sotapanna.""
            Here we see that sukkhavipassaka according to ledi is the lowest
            type. If it is the lowest (as the texts and Ledi said) why should it
            be considered harder?

            3:http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/livmed2a.htm#LivingMed
            "It is not entirely necessary that in vipassana practice one achieve
            a tranquil state through samatha practices. What is crucial is pañña
            paramita in the individual (the inherent quality of intelligence). If
            a person has the necessary pañña paramita and is ready for it, he or
            she can attain enlightenment even by just listening to a discourse.
            Hence, based on a person's pañña paramita, enlightenment can be
            achieved while living a household life and contemplating anicca
            (impermanence) within or without his or her own self, within or
            without his or her own home life." Ledi Sayadaw (Vipassana Dipani)

            ____

            Teng:> You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able
            to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to
            decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly
            from buddha but insight is.Think about this sutta com but we do not
            have tika on it.

            ________
            Robert: Yes I have read this. I read it as descriptive of the decline
            of the sasana. In the early years so many Patisambhidapatta arahants,
            a thousand years later none or almost none (but still sukkhavipassaka
            arahants )(see Chulavaggatthakatha) .

            _______

            Teng: > the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross
            the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim
            across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We
            need to
            > use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the
            harder way.
            _____
            All kusala , including jhana, is helpful for crossing samsara. If one
            can develop jhana and vipassana, great. But if we have the idea that
            first we must master jhana before embarking on vipassana we may
            neglect a great chance as it is only during a Buddha sasana that the
            words of anatta, the five khandas are heard. jhana can be developed
            outside the sasana as well.
            ________

            > Teng: The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya
            now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )
            because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not
            possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are
            people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
            _______
            Yes some vipassayanika have had experience of jhana (but not all).
            The nivarana are overcome at moments of insight (tadanga nirodha) ,
            that is why the Buddha included the nivarana (hindrances) as part of
            the objects of contemplation in the satipatthana sutta.
            The commentary to the sutta:
            "Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances(nivarana) is
            the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu
            who lays hold of the hindrances should be
            understood.""""http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDhamma.htm#Doubt


            > Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong
            because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.

            _______
            The petakopadesa (at least the one the pali text society uses) is
            unfortunately hopelessly corrupt. I see no problems with the Netti
            though.
            I appreciate very much this discussion as I think it quite a crucial
            one.
            RobertK

            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@y...>" <rjkjp1@y...>
            > Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
            > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com
            >
            > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
            > > > dear Rob,
            > > > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
            > > sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
            > > samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will
            be
            > > easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try
            attain
            > > nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
            > > even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It
            can
            > > sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes
            when
            > > we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first
            jhana,second
            > > jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment
            in
            > > the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
            > > __________
            > >
            > > Dear Teng kee,
            > > When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he
            mean
            > > that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
            > > The Netti-pakarana (587)
            > > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati,
            majjhindriyassa
            > > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
            > > vipassanam upadassati.
            > > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
            > > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
            > > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
            > > blunt
            > > faculties."
            > >
            > > In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
            > > mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
            > >
            > > I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
            > > master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
            > > attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't
            count
            > > as mastery).
            > >
            > >
            > > > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in
            com
            > > but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
            > > sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by
            upacara /jhana in
            > > dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara
            as
            > > mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they
            are
            > > samathayanika too but just upacara.
            > >
            > > This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it
            would
            > > be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to
            study
            > > what you write on it.
            > > RobertK
            > > > mail.com/lavalife
            > >
            > >
            > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
            digest or web only.
            > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
            > > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            > >
            >
            > --
            > _______________________________________________
            > Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com
            > http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup
            >
            > Meet Singles
            > http://corp.mail.com/lavalife
          • Ong Teng Kee
            See netti com for neyya as 3 sikkha.see ledi sayadaw book for the direct saying .I cannot remember which but I am sure you get the wrong one.The sutta are
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 11, 2003
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              See netti com for neyya as 3 sikkha.see ledi sayadaw book for the direct saying .I cannot remember which but I am sure you get the wrong one.The sutta are about 5 hetu for the sasana to fall and it happen anytime even buddha is still alive.Being a non jhana or non abhinna don't destroy the sasana.
              Your reasons about quicker and easier don't refute well to asubha sutta and buddhaghosa com on it.see also gopakamoggalana sutta which i find most yogi have this mistake including my mother.Nothing can be done if you take this sutta as non sense.Why samadhi become harder than vipassana.It is vipassana about 4 noble truth are much harder than samadhi jhana .Is it as a monk we cannot find even 2 hours out of 20 hours for samatha jhana.The correct way is if we cannot attain any frution after years ,we will try attain jhana.it become higher if we still cannot attain frutions.My relative as a monk who pratice mahasi method started jhana practice after 7 years with no fruition.This is the correct way.(vipassayanika is still available to him)



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@...>" <rjkjp1@...>
              Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2003 20:04:26 -0000
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com

              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
              > > Dear Rob,
              > > All these has been rejected by Ledi sayadaw in his dipani.I was
              > asked by a nun why ledi and mahasi contradicted each other.ledi said
              > sukavipasaka are only for people with high wisdom .(This is a bit
              > hard to accept because it will mean sariputa is a sukavipasa).
              > ______________
              > Dear Teng kee,
              > Ledi sayadaw was a great teacher but controversial in some areas
              > (such as his disagreements with a few parts of the commentary to the
              > Abhidhammathasangaha). I did a search and found some statements by
              > him:
              > 1.
              > http://www.enabling.org/ia/vipassana/Archive/T/Thynn/LivMedLivIn/livme
              > d_2.htm
              > The Path of Sukkhavipassaka
              > Samatha practices such as anapanasati meditations on the breath are
              > not particularly necessary on the Path of Sukkhavipassaka. Together
              > with observance of the three sila (moral precepts), panna (wisdom)
              > can be developed. When the two panna factors develop, the three
              > samadhi factors are also developed concomitantly. This is known as
              > pañcangika magga. Herein Five Path factors are together integratedly
              > developed. In conjunction with the three sila factors, they make up
              > the Noble Eightfold Path.
              > Practicing this Path will also relieve mental afflictions. To
              > practice this path requires a high level of intelligence, effort and
              > perseverance.""Ledi Sayadaw (Magganga Dipani)
              > His last statement here is perhaps what leads you to think he said
              > sukkhavipassaka was the hardest way. But maybe we could read it that
              > all ways take great intelligence, effort and perseverance. Also
              > someone that has the extraordinarily great parami to attain mastery
              > of jhana and use this as the basis might have an easier task when we
              > consider this life only. As I mentioned in my earlier post that
              > doesn't take account of the many lives they had spent developing
              > skills in both vipassana and samatha.
              > ________
              >
              >
              > 2:http://www.ubakhin.com/ledi/manual6h.htm
              > "I shall now show the way of sotapatti-magga in lokuttara-magganga.
              > It should be remembered that this book is aimed at the lowest of the
              > ariya, namely the 'bon-sin-san' sukkhavipassaka-sotapanna.""
              > Here we see that sukkhavipassaka according to ledi is the lowest
              > type. If it is the lowest (as the texts and Ledi said) why should it
              > be considered harder?
              >
              > 3:http://web.ukonline.co.uk/buddhism/livmed2a.htm#LivingMed
              > "It is not entirely necessary that in vipassana practice one achieve
              > a tranquil state through samatha practices. What is crucial is pañña
              > paramita in the individual (the inherent quality of intelligence). If
              > a person has the necessary pañña paramita and is ready for it, he or
              > she can attain enlightenment even by just listening to a discourse.
              > Hence, based on a person's pañña paramita, enlightenment can be
              > achieved while living a household life and contemplating anicca
              > (impermanence) within or without his or her own self, within or
              > without his or her own home life." Ledi Sayadaw (Vipassana Dipani)
              >
              > ____
              >
              > Teng:> You must read kassapa samyutta last sutta where not been able
              > to attain eight jhana/effort are among the reasons for the sasana to
              > decline.This is the prediction for us because jhana is not directly
              > from buddha but insight is.Think about this sutta com but we do not
              > have tika on it.
              >
              > ________
              > Robert: Yes I have read this. I read it as descriptive of the decline
              > of the sasana. In the early years so many Patisambhidapatta arahants,
              > a thousand years later none or almost none (but still sukkhavipassaka
              > arahants )(see Chulavaggatthakatha) .
              >
              > _______
              >
              > Teng: > the nava(ship is jhana) help very much to carry us to cross
              > the sea(samsara)but without it we have to swim .No dout some can swim
              > across the sea but a kilamati(exhausted )way.In the end of sasana We
              > need to
              > > use the easier way since our chance are so slim,how can we try the
              > harder way.
              > _____
              > All kusala , including jhana, is helpful for crossing samsara. If one
              > can develop jhana and vipassana, great. But if we have the idea that
              > first we must master jhana before embarking on vipassana we may
              > neglect a great chance as it is only during a Buddha sasana that the
              > words of anatta, the five khandas are heard. jhana can be developed
              > outside the sasana as well.
              > ________
              >
              > > Teng: The teaching i heard from a sinhala monk is there are ariya
              > now but it is only for anyone with eight jhana (though not idhhi )
              > because our nivarana are too srong. without samapatti it is not
              > possible.I believe it.This include vipasayanika because they are
              > people who have jhana but not emerge from it but follow after insight.
              > _______
              > Yes some vipassayanika have had experience of jhana (but not all).
              > The nivarana are overcome at moments of insight (tadanga nirodha) ,
              > that is why the Buddha included the nivarana (hindrances) as part of
              > the objects of contemplation in the satipatthana sutta.
              > The commentary to the sutta:
              > "Here the mindfulness which lays hold of the hindrances(nivarana) is
              > the Truth of Suffering. Thus the portal of deliverance of the bhikkhu
              > who lays hold of the hindrances should be
              > understood.""""http://www.abhidhamma.org/commentaryDhamma.htm#Doubt
              >
              >
              > > Netti gave opposite thing from petakopadesa .The order are wrong
              > because the manuscript are wrong with the tika in different order.
              >
              > _______
              > The petakopadesa (at least the one the pali text society uses) is
              > unfortunately hopelessly corrupt. I see no problems with the Netti
              > though.
              > I appreciate very much this discussion as I think it quite a crucial
              > one.
              > RobertK
              >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "rjkjp1 <rjkjp1@y...>" <rjkjp1@y...>
              > > Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 19:59:47 -0000
              > > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [Pali] Re: anenjasapaya sutta com
              > >
              > > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@e...> wrote:
              > > > > dear Rob,
              > > > > You have misunderstood buddhaghosa because you didn't read this
              > > > sutta com.If he said sukavipasaka is a harder way to nibbana but
              > > > samathayanika with jhana as a ship(sampan) to cross the sea will
              > be
              > > > easier,how can it be in the end of sasana everyone will try
              > attain
              > > > nibbana in the harder way since our parami will be poorer,we need
              > > > even more jhana to be easier compare to those sariputta etc.It
              > can
              > > > sure that sukavipasaka mean arahant without iddhi ,devine eyes
              > when
              > > > we talk about end of sasana , they are emerge from first
              > jhana,second
              > > > jhana though not from formless.The word kilamati has no comment
              > in
              > > > the tika but maybe in anguttara old tika by dhammapala(missing)
              > > > __________
              > > >
              > > > Dear Teng kee,
              > > > When Buddhaghosa says that sukkavipassaka is harder doesn't he
              > mean
              > > > that it is a dry way - not moistened by the dew of the jhanas?
              > > > The Netti-pakarana (587)
              > > > "Tattha Bhagava tikkhindriyassa samatham upadassati,
              > majjhindriyassa
              > > > Bhagava samathavipassanam upadissati, mudindriyassa Bhagava
              > > > vipassanam upadassati.
              > > > Herein the Blessed one teaches samatha to one of keen faculties;
              > > > The blessed one teaches samatha and insight to one of medium
              > > > faculties and the blessed one teaches insight [alone] to one of
              > > > blunt
              > > > faculties."
              > > >
              > > > In this late stage of the sasana isn't almost everyone one of the
              > > > mudindriyasaa(blunt facultied)
              > > >
              > > > I believe only the very wise ones with great accumulations could
              > > > master jhana and use it as the base for insight. (Being able to
              > > > attain access concentration or even one of the jhanas doesn't
              > count
              > > > as mastery).
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > > Anyway i think at this moment sukavipasaka has two meanings in
              > com
              > > > but vipasanayanika are not the same with both of them because
              > > > sudhavipasanayanika are momentary samadhi follow by
              > upacara /jhana in
              > > > dhammapala com (citta and dhamma)while sukavipasaka are upacara
              > as
              > > > mention in patisambhida com-as a kayasakkhi which prove that they
              > are
              > > > samathayanika too but just upacara.
              > > >
              > > > This is all very interesting. As you have studied this alot it
              > would
              > > > be nice if you gave more references and quotes. I will try to
              > study
              > > > what you write on it.
              > > > RobertK
              > > > > mail.com/lavalife
              > > >
              > > >
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