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Pali Translation needed for Abhidhamma Pitaka-Puggala Pannati Atthakatha

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  • freeyow
    25. Pa~n~naavimuttaniddese – pa~n~naaya vimuttoti pa~n~naavimutto. So sukkhavipassako catuuhi jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa cattaaro caati
    Message 1 of 7 , Feb 13, 2012
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      25. Pa~n~naavimuttaniddese – pa~n~naaya vimuttoti pa~n~naavimutto. So sukkhavipassako catuuhi jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa cattaaro caati pa~ncavidho hoti. Etesu hi ekopi a.t.thavimokkhalaabhii na hoti. Teneva na heva kho a.t.tha vimokkhetiaadimaaha. Aruupaavacarajjhaanesu pana ekasmi.m sati ubhatobhaagavimuttoyeva naama hotiiti.


      Source:Abhidhamma Pitaka->Puggala Pannati Atthakatha


      Any Pali teacher/learner know such Pali sentence? Your advices are much appreciated!

      Namo Buddhassa.
      Yow
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear freeyow, The construction is not easy, I need help. Especially the locative absolute of ekasmi.m sati... ... The explanation of freed by pa~n~naa. Freed
      Message 2 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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        Dear freeyow,
        The construction is not easy, I need help. Especially the locative
        absolute of ekasmi.m sati...
        Op 14-feb-2012, om 4:07 heeft freeyow het volgende geschreven:
        > Source:Abhidhamma Pitaka->Puggala Pannati Atthakatha
        >
        > 25. Pa~n~naavimuttaniddese � pa~n~naaya vimuttoti pa~n~naavimutto.
        >
        The explanation of freed by pa~n~naa. Freed by pa~n~naa.
        > So sukkhavipassako catuuhi jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa
        > cattaaro caati pa~ncavidho hoti.
        >
        The person who has developed dry insight (N: without jhaanas) and
        four who has emerged from the four jhaanas have reached arahatship,
        this is fivefold.
        --------
        > Etesu hi ekopi a.t.thavimokkhalaabhii na hoti. Teneva na heva kho
        > a.t.tha vimokkhetiaadimaaha.
        >
        Among these one person does not have the eight deliverances.
        Therefore he said that he does not have the eight deliverances and so
        on.
        ------
        > Aruupaavacarajjhaanesu pana ekasmi.m sati ubhatobhaagavimuttoyeva
        > naama hotiiti.
        >
        >
        Even when there is one among the aruupajhaanas (immaterial jhaanas)
        then he is called freed both ways.
        --------
        N: ekasmi.m sati: when there is one. I understood that even when he
        attained one stage of aruupajhaana.
        I can add some explanations from Ven. Henepola, "The Jhaanas in
        Theravada Buddhist Meditation." He also used commentaries for the
        explanation. There are five types of those who are freed by wisdom:
        the dry insight person and four who reach arahatship after emerging
        from one of the four ruupa-jhaanas. There are five types of those who
        are freed both ways: who have attained four aruupajhaanas and who
        have attained cessation (nirodha), the temporary cessation of citta
        and cetasikas.
        Arahats who are freed both ways: freedom from the material body
        (while dwelling in the aruupa jhaanas) and freedom from the mental
        body, freed from all defilements.
        ------
        Nina.




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bryan Levman
        Dear Nina,   ...   I am reading vu.t.thaaya as a gerund and pattaa, as ablative of the past participle: The one who is “dry-visioned”, having emerged
        Message 3 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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          Dear Nina,
           
          >The person who has developed dry insight (N: without jhaanas) and 
          >four who has emerged from the four jhaanas have reached arahatship, 
          >this is fivefold.
           
          I am reading vu.t.thaaya as a gerund and pattaa, as ablative of the past participle:
          The one who is “dry-visioned”, having emerged from the four jhānas,
          because of having attained the state of arhat, is fourfold and even fivefold.
          Grammatically, I think  the subject of sukkhavipassako, vu.t.thaaya, pattaa, and hoti must all be the same.
          However, if dry-visioned means "without the jhaanas," then this doesn't make sense, unless vu.t.thaaya is
          being used in the sense of "not doing."
           
           I'm assuming "fourfold and even fivefold" refers
          to the next sentence: "four or fivefold liberated" as opposed to eightfold liberated.
           
          I read the next sentence as "For regarding these things, he  has not also attained the eightfold liberation."
           
          >Even when there is one among the aruupajhaanas (immaterial jhaanas) 
          >then he is called freed both ways.
          I agree that this sentence is problematic as the word "attained" seems to be missing.
          But I think you have the gist of it ("If he has attained even one of the formless jhaanas,
          he is called two-ways-liberated").
          Nevertheless, I don't really understand the whole passage, but that may be because of missing context,
           
          Bryan
           
           
           

          ________________________________
          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 5:17:09 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Translation needed for Abhidhamma Pitaka-Puggala Pannati Atthakatha

          Dear freeyow,
          The construction is not easy, I need help. Especially the locative 
          absolute of ekasmi.m sati...
          Op 14-feb-2012, om 4:07 heeft freeyow het volgende geschreven:
          > Source:Abhidhamma Pitaka->Puggala Pannati Atthakatha
          >
          > 25. Pa~n~naavimuttaniddese – pa~n~naaya vimuttoti pa~n~naavimutto.
          >
          The explanation of freed by pa~n~naa. Freed by pa~n~naa.
          > So sukkhavipassako catuuhi jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa 
          > cattaaro caati pa~ncavidho hoti.
          >
          The person who has developed dry insight (N: without jhaanas) and 
          four who has emerged from the four jhaanas have reached arahatship, 
          this is fivefold.
          --------
          > Etesu hi ekopi a.t.thavimokkhalaabhii na hoti. Teneva na heva kho 
          > a.t.tha vimokkhetiaadimaaha.
          >
          Among these one person does not have the eight deliverances. 
          Therefore he said that he does not have the eight deliverances and so 
          on.
          ------
          > Aruupaavacarajjhaanesu pana ekasmi.m sati ubhatobhaagavimuttoyeva 
          > naama hotiiti.
          >
          >
          Even when there is one among the aruupajhaanas (immaterial jhaanas) 
          then he is called freed both ways.
          --------
          N: ekasmi.m sati: when there is one. I understood that even when he 
          attained one stage of aruupajhaana.
          I can add some explanations from Ven. Henepola, "The Jhaanas in 
          Theravada Buddhist Meditation." He also used commentaries for the 
          explanation. There are five types of those who are freed by wisdom: 
          the dry insight person and four who reach arahatship after emerging 
          from one of the four ruupa-jhaanas. There are five types of those who 
          are freed both ways: who have attained four aruupajhaanas and who 
          have attained cessation (nirodha), the temporary cessation of citta 
          and cetasikas.
          Arahats who are freed both ways: freedom from the material body 
          (while dwelling in the aruupa jhaanas) and freedom from the mental 
          body, freed from all defilements.
          ------
          Nina.




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Bryan, ... N: Without the explanations as read in Ven. Henepola s book, I would not understand this passage. But, as we can also find in the Co, of those
          Message 4 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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            Dear Bryan,

            Op 28-mrt-2012, om 13:51 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

            > Dear Nina,
            >
            > >The person who has developed dry insight (N: without jhaanas) and
            > >four who has emerged from the four jhaanas have reached arahatship,
            > >this is fivefold.
            >
            > I am reading vu.t.thaaya as a gerund and pattaa, as ablative of the
            > past participle:
            > The one who is “dry-visioned”, having emerged from the four
            > jhānas,
            > because of having attained the state of arhat, is fourfold and even
            > fivefold.
            > Grammatically, I think the subject of sukkhavipassako,
            > vu.t.thaaya, pattaa, and hoti must all be the same.
            > However, if dry-visioned means "without the jhaanas," then this
            > doesn't make sense, unless vu.t.thaaya is
            > being used in the sense of "not doing."
            >
            -------
            N: Without the explanations as read in Ven. Henepola's book, I would
            not understand this passage. But, as we can also find in the Co, of
            those who are pa~n~na vimutta, one is dryvisioned, and four have
            developed ruupa-jhaana. Thus, we have this: <So sukkhavipassako
            catuuhi jhaanehi vu.t.thaaya arahatta.m pattaa
            > cattaaro caati pa~ncavidho hoti.>: caati, ca, meaning 'and'. One
            sukkhavipassako and four having emerged from jhaana and attained
            arahatship, thus, there are five.
            -------
            >
            > B: I'm assuming "fourfold and even fivefold" refers
            > to the next sentence: "four or fivefold liberated" as opposed to
            > eightfold liberated.
            >
            --------
            N: Pa~n~naa vimutta: five different persons. Indeed, these five are
            different from the eightfold liberated.
            -------
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Mahinda Palihawadana
            Dear friends, I would suggest the following translation for the passage quoted: AS regards explaining (the term) pannaa-vimutta: p.v. means one who is
            Message 5 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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              Dear friends,
              I would suggest the following translation for the passage quoted:
              "AS regards explaining (the term) pannaa-vimutta: p.v. means one who
              is liberated by means of insight (pannaa). He (the type of person so
              designated) is fivefold, (namely) the "Bare Insight" person and the
              four who have attained (pattaa: PPP nom. pl.) arahantship on emerging
              from the four jhaanas. None among them is an attainer of the eight
              liberations. Hence indeed (the text) says "aTTha vimokkhe" etc. When
              (here almost the same as 'if') one of the four formless jhaanas is
              present (= has been attained), (the attainer of it) is called
              "liberated in both ways".

              Mahinda
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Mahinda, thank you for your clear translation, much appreciated, Nina. Op 28-mrt-2012, om 16:59 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende ... [Non-text
              Message 6 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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                Dear Mahinda,
                thank you for your clear translation,
                much appreciated,
                Nina.
                Op 28-mrt-2012, om 16:59 heeft Mahinda Palihawadana het volgende
                geschreven:

                > Dear friends,
                > I would suggest the following translation for the passage quoted:
                > "AS regards explaining (the term) pannaa-vimutta: p.v. means one who
                > is liberated by means of insight (pannaa). He (the type of person so
                > designated) is fivefold, (namely) the "Bare Insight" person and the
                > four who have attained (pattaa: PPP nom. pl.) arahantship on emerging
                > from the four jhaanas. None among them is an attainer of the eight
                > liberations. Hence indeed (the text) says "aTTha vimokkhe" etc. When
                > (here almost the same as 'if') one of the four formless jhaanas is
                > present (= has been attained), (the attainer of it) is called
                > "liberated in both ways".
                >
                > Mahinda
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bryan Levman
                Dear Mahinda and Nina, Thanks very much for your explanations; I understand it now, Metta, Bryan ________________________________ From: Mahinda Palihawadana
                Message 7 of 7 , Mar 28, 2012
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                  Dear Mahinda and Nina,

                  Thanks very much for your explanations; I understand it now,


                  Metta, Bryan




                  ________________________________
                  From: Mahinda Palihawadana <mahipal6@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2012 10:59:38 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali Translation needed for Abhidhamma Pitaka-Puggala Pannati Atthakatha


                   
                  Dear friends,
                  I would suggest the following translation for the passage quoted:
                  "AS regards explaining (the term) pannaa-vimutta: p.v. means one who
                  is liberated by means of insight (pannaa). He (the type of person so
                  designated) is fivefold, (namely) the "Bare Insight" person and the
                  four who have attained (pattaa: PPP nom. pl.) arahantship on emerging
                  from the four jhaanas. None among them is an attainer of the eight
                  liberations. Hence indeed (the text) says "aTTha vimokkhe" etc. When
                  (here almost the same as 'if') one of the four formless jhaanas is
                  present (= has been attained), (the attainer of it) is called
                  "liberated in both ways".

                  Mahinda



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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