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Re: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project

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  • Ong Teng Kee
    -Dear Kumara, When I said you can get complete set of sixth council book ,I do not mean you can get all publication from this buddhasasana samiti sixth council
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 7, 2003
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      -Dear Kumara,
      When I said you can get complete set of sixth council book ,I do not mean you can get all publication from this buddhasasana samiti sixth council because this foundation are too young (50 years)compare to Publisher like hanthawaday and tudhammavadi (100 years)etc.Buddhasasana samiti has no time to redo all their 3000 books-1500 in pali like madhutika,manidipa and grammar like nyasa.1000 for tran like nissaya on com etc.Also lost tika .Buddhasana samiti has only about 250 with a bit tran on them.
      mahindrama has 25 vol of thumavadi in their library
      which are very old and dirty.

      ---- Original Message -----
      From: "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...>
      Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 06:50:45 -0500
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project

      >
      > All these should be answered by Aggacitta if his is a real scholar.Take your computer to penang burmese temple to check their complete sixth council text .You have to know that sixth council books are not a team work but individual work like their dict and tran on tipitaka.There should not be a complain about vri making mistakes because they are doing a favor for people who cannot spend 20 usd on each volume. Look at mahasi and nyanuttara who even overlook buudhaghosa did not recommed sukkhavipassaka for everyone but reject it.(a fact that sujato did not know)
      >
      > Pre sixth council vol for the books are not the same -AN tika is in two vol instaed of three,Vajirabuddhi is one instaed of two.The word are more compound-like as Supapha na bangchang said in his majjhima tika intro about old and new burmese majjhima tika.See vol of pre sixth council in Penang mahindrama temple.
      >
      > --- Original Message -----
      > From: Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...>
      > Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 10:16:42 +0800
      > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project
      >
      > > At 07:13 PM 05-01-03, Ong Teng Kee wrote:
      > > >I found out last night that VRI cdrom is correct in Myanmar script but not in Roman which could be the software conversion is faulty.They type in myanmar script follow the book from sixth council.
      > > >I compare a abhidhamma tika in Thuddhamma series (pre sixth council)but it is not the same with the cdrom which prove that your saying is wrong.
      > >
      > > You might be right.
      > >
      > > Can you share a few things:
      > > 1. Are you referring to the Myanmar or the Roman script?
      > > 2. How about other books? Did you find the same?
      > > 3. Can you give us a short example? With that, we may get to see how the machine conversion could have gone wrong. I can read Myanmar scripts --- though at a crawling speed.
      > >
      > >
      > > >Most of those pre sicth council books are without heavier ink for commented word-xxxxx ti,so they cannot type those in the cdrom without new sixth council books.
      > >
      > > You've got a point there.
      > >
      > > I thinking: Can't the VRI people bold them themselves?
      > >
      > >
      > > >Also pre sixth council books have reading connected a lot compare to the new one.
      > >
      > > Sorry, can you come again?
      > >
      > > I still trust Sayadaw U Silananda's words on the issue that VRI's CSCD does not contain the CS version. He *was* among the editors of the council. I don't see him as one who makes rash statements.
      > >
      > > kb
      > >
      > > >----- Original Message -----
      > > >From: "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...>
      > > >Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 07:04:13 -0500
      > > >To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >Subject: Re: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project
      > > >
      > > >> I like to add that the nun is Supaphan Na Bangchang if I am not wrong.She is a student of Lily De silva .She did edit majjhima tika mulapariyaya vagga with almost all sinhala readings on the main line.
      > > >> As I have to repeat -We do not need any more new tipitaka only or with the same com and tika printed edition but we do need those lost tika like linatthadipani on patisambhida by vacisara,netti ganthi etc where it can help us to understand about misunderstood topic in sukkavipasaka etc.
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >> --- Original Message -----
      > > >> From: "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...>
      > > >> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 2003 06:49:48 -0500
      > > >> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> Subject: Re: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project
      > > >>
      > > >> > I have seen it from one of my friends.It is just a all thai readings in the main reading which is not the way to edit pali text.No Lanna thai was put in the main line.They did not edit tika like samyutta tika which no edition other than from myanmar.we must abandon those readings in the leaves even it is from our own country manuscripts.
      > > >> >
      > > >> > I have many non sixth council printed texts from myanmar which I found the readings are not the same with the cdrom.
      > > >> >
      > > >> > ----- Original Message -----
      > > >> > From: Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...>
      > > >> > Date: Fri, 03 Jan 2003 20:04:12 +0800
      > > >> > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> > Subject: [Pali] New Pali Tipitaka Project
      > > >> >
      > > >> > > Dear all,
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > I was informed by Ven. Sujato (an Australian monk, who conducted a retreat here) of a new Pali Tipitaka project undertaken by a university (MahaCulalonkorn?) in Thailand. Here's some background information about it:
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 1. It all started when the mother of one of the people in the project went to Rangoon (now Yangon) to observe the proceedings of the Sixth Council. She was so inspired by it that, before she died, she asked that her son print the Tipitaka for free distribution.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 2. When the VRI CSCD come out, the son decided to produce a print version of it, thereby fulfilling his mother's dying wish.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 3. However, as he went over the texts, he found errors. The more he checked the more errors he found.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 4. This led to a big project under the auspices of a Thai university.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 5. From the research, they found out that:
      > > >> > > There are more than 30,000 discrepancies found in the VRI version.
      > > >> > > The VRI CSCD does not contain the Sixth Council version. (Sayadaw U Silananda was right.)
      > > >> > > Somehow, it is found to have taken the Fifth Council (Mandalay) version as its source.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 6. Instead of reproducing the Sixth Council version (which many scholars outside Myanmar are not too happy about), they decided to produce a new version. To do this, the project took a few years and a lot of human and computer power. Among the scholars was a nun who had learnt many ancient writings to lead the transcription work. With her help, they were able to make comparison among more than ten different ancient scripts of the Pali scriptures.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 7. The texts went through repeated visual *and* verbal proofreading. So, it should have minimal typographic errors.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > 8. The Pali Tipitaka Project has ended. As I was told, they have printed 1000 sets for free distribution and have recently launched it. If I remember correctly, they have included all the commentaries as well.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > Please don't ask me where to get them. We managed the contact the man (whose mother's wish started all this), and he only said he'll keep us informed. That was a few weeks ago. No news since then.
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > peace
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > Kumâra Bhikkhu
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > > >> > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
      > > >> > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > >> > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> > > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
      > > >> > > [Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >> > >
      > > >> > >
      > > >> >
      > > >> > --
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      > > >> >
      > > >> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > > >> > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
      > > >> > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > >> > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
      > > >> > [Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
      > > >> >
      > > >> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >> >
      > > >> >
      > > >>
      > > >> --
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      > > >>
      > > >> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > > >> Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
      > > >> [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > >> [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >> [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
      > > >> [Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
      > > >>
      > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >>
      > > >>
      > > >
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      > > >Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
      > > >[Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > >[Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > >[Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
      > > >[Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
      > > >
      > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
      > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
      > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
      > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
      > > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
      > > [Discussion] http://www.tipitaka.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
      > >
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      > >
      > >
      >
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      > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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      > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
      >
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      >
      >

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    • Ong Teng Kee
      There are too many in maha tika mula tika etc where the readings have completely meaning in thai and burmese.Just look at mahatika in BUDSIR version from
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 7, 2003
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        There are too many in maha tika mula tika etc where the readings have completely meaning in thai and burmese.Just look at mahatika in BUDSIR version from mahamakut.The budsir has mahamakut tipitaka .jataka com,mahatika,vinaya com,sarathadipani etc but the rest of the com are chula series.Sixth council only used mahamakut because chula are new version after 1960.






        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...>
        Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:33:23 +0800
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Variant readings, CS version, various Tipitakas (Re: [Pali] Re: New Pali Tipitaka Project)

        > At 12:28 AM 06-01-03, you wrote:
        > >1. How do the different copies of the Pali Tipitaka (Thai, Sinhala,
        > >Burmese) differ? I have a good idea of the difference between the
        > >Chinese Agama and the Pali Nikaya, but I am not clear about the
        > >distinctions of the variants of the Nikayas in Thai, Sinhala and
        > >Burmese (scripts).
        >
        > Compared to the differences between the Agamas and the Nikayas, the variant readings among the various Pali scripts are relatively minor. Among the Nikayas, we find variants by small chunks only.
        >
        > If you have the CSCD, or most PTS Pali texts, you can find the variant readings as footnotes. (For CSCD, click on [F] when you see a sign something like two connected "S"s with two following digits.)
        >
        > More often than not, they are extremely minor and do not change the meaning, such as "pathavi" as preferred in the CSCD, compared to "pa.thavi" given as a variant reading as in the Siihala, Syaama (Thai), Kamboja, and PTS version, shown as footnote in the CSCD. [Majjhimanikaayo > Muulapa.n.naasapaa.li > 1. Muulapariyaayavaggo > 1. Muulapariyaayasutta.m (which is the first sutta of MN)]
        >
        > The Burmese seems to have adopted "pathavi" throughout the Pali scripture for consistency sake. The other versions have both "pathavi" and "pathavi" in different places.
        >
        > I can't think of any place whereby the reading differs so much that the meanings seriously differs as well. Perhaps someone can point out one (if any).
        >
        >
        > >2. The CSCD claims to contain the 6th council version, but is the
        > >5th. What are the differences between the two versions?
        >
        > I'm not saying that the CSCD contains the 5th council version. What I said was that Thai university researchers say that it seems to take that version as its source.
        >
        > Anyhow, as I understand, some editing has been done in the sixth, such as
        > to correct grammatical errors (which can be controversial as scholars do disagree on certain grammar points).
        > to make similar words/phrase/suttas consistent (such as Karaniiyametta Sutta, which occurs in Suttanipaatapaa.li and Khuddakapaa.thapaa.li. FYI, there are a few very minor discrepancies between them within the CSCD itself. I would expect the Sixth Council editors to be able to weed out such obvious discrepancies in such a well-known sutta.)
        > to correct misspellings, etc.
        >
        >
        > >3. Which council versions do the following available tipitaka come
        > >from:
        > > (a) PTS Pali Tipitaka,
        >
        > It is a result of comparison among various versions (but obviously not the CS which has yet to happen then), and, where it differs, make decisions as to which they think should be the case. Sometimes, they have a new reading of their own.
        >
        > They are not always correct though. There's a big boo-boo in an earlier PTS Udana (ed. Steintal), where a sutta (I.5) clearly suggests that the Buddha said "aayasmaa Devadatto" was among the "braahmanaa", which he later qualify as "Those who, having ousted evil states, fare mindful at all times..." (tr. Masefield). That means "arahants", which Ven. Devadatta could not have been one. Masefield in his endnote express his surprise that "Neither Woodward nor Ireland seems to have noticed this rather obvious point."
        >
        > Fortunately, later PTS translators (such as Norman and Masefield) do not stick to the PTS Pali texts, but refer to various versions at hand. It is quite common for them to differ with the early PTS Pali text editors in choice of readings.
        >
        >
        > > (b) Budsir: http://www.budsir.org
        >
        > I can't remember for sure, but I think it's based on the Chulalongkorn edition. (There's another Thai edition called the Mahamakut. I think it goes by the two prime universities in Thailand. Does anyone have any idea which version is referred to as the Syaama edition in the CS?) I've no idea which council it is based upon.
        >
        > However, based upon studies ancient scripts, Norman thinks that the Tipitaka may not have reached the Thais through the Burmese, but through a different route.
        >
        > > (c) SLTP Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka:
        > >http://www.gold.ac.uk/history/ibric.htm
        >
        > I'm not sure which council/edition it is based upon but expect it to lean closer to the Siihala edition.
        >
        > As I was given the impression, this impetus for version is a dissatisfaction for the CS version. The Burmese scholar monks outnumbered the foreign ones at the council and did not pay enough attention to their views. That I think was very unfortunate indeed for the Sasana.
        >
        >
        > Even if we're happy with the CSCD (which is truly a magnificent production), it's good to have another (or more) source just in case you need to compare.
        >
        > For example, in the CSCD's A"nguttaranikaayo > Dasakanipaatapaa.li > Jaa.nusso.nivaggo > Jaa.nusso.nisutta.m, we find this:
        >
        > “Idha pana, braahma.na, ekacco paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato hoti ...pe... sammaadi.t.thiko hoti. So kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa devaana.m sahabyata.m upapajjati. Yo devaana.m aahaaro, tena so tattha yaapeti, tena so tattha ti.t.thati. Idampi, braahma.na, a.t.thaana.m yattha.thitassa ta.m daana.m upakappati.
        >
        > A "na" is missing before the last word. It should be
        > ... ta.m daana.m na upakappati.
        >
        > You should find the same in other versions. Yet, the CSCD version did not even have a footnote of variant reading. This is obviously a typographic error.
        >
        >
        > Sorry for not being able to give a more complete answer than the above, Yong Peng. I hope others in the group could throw more light, and correct me if I'm wrong.
        >
        > peace
        >
        > Kumâra Bhikkhu
        >
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
        > [Mailing List] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
        > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >

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      • abhidhammika <suanluzaw@bodhiology.org>
        Dear Venerable Kumaara Bhikkhu How are you? Happy New Year! You wrote: For example, in the CSCD s A nguttaranikaayo Dasakanipaatapaa.li Jaa.nusso.nivaggo
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 7, 2003
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          Dear Venerable Kumaara Bhikkhu

          How are you? Happy New Year!

          You wrote:

          "For example, in the CSCD's A"nguttaranikaayo > Dasakanipaatapaa.li >
          Jaa.nusso.nivaggo > Jaa.nusso.nisutta.m, we find this:

          "Idha pana, braahma.na, ekacco paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato
          hoti ...pe...
          sammaadi.t.thiko hoti. So kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa devaana.m
          sahabyata.m
          upapajjati. Yo devaana.m aahaaro, tena so tattha yaapeti, tena so
          tattha
          ti.t.thati. Idampi, braahma.na, a.t.thaana.m yattha.thitassa ta.m
          daana.m
          upakappati.

          A "na" is missing before the last word. It should be
          ... ta.m daana.m na upakappati.

          You should find the same in other versions. Yet, the CSCD version did
          not even have a footnote of variant reading. This is obviously a
          typographic error."

          Thank you for pointing out the missing "na" in the above paragraph in
          the CSCD.

          As you noted, it is merely the typing error of the compilers of the
          VRI CSCD.

          It is nothing to do with Cha.t.tha Sangayana Edition oF Pali
          Tipi.taka published in Myanmar.

          I think you should write to Vippasana Research Institute with your
          findings of such errors so that the future editions of CSCD do not
          contain them.


          With five-fold touch bow,

          Suan Lu Zaw

          http://www.bodhiology.org











          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@p...> wrote:



          > At 12:28 AM 06-01-03, you wrote:
          > >1. How do the different copies of the Pali Tipitaka (Thai,
          Sinhala,
          > >Burmese) differ? I have a good idea of the difference between the
          > >Chinese Agama and the Pali Nikaya, but I am not clear about the
          > >distinctions of the variants of the Nikayas in Thai, Sinhala and
          > >Burmese (scripts).
          >
          > Compared to the differences between the Agamas and the Nikayas, the
          variant readings among the various Pali scripts are relatively minor.
          Among the Nikayas, we find variants by small chunks only.
          >
          > If you have the CSCD, or most PTS Pali texts, you can find the
          variant readings as footnotes. (For CSCD, click on [F] when you see a
          sign something like two connected "S"s with two following digits.)
          >
          > More often than not, they are extremely minor and do not change the
          meaning, such as "pathavi" as preferred in the CSCD, compared
          to "pa.thavi" given as a variant reading as in the Siihala, Syaama
          (Thai), Kamboja, and PTS version, shown as footnote in the CSCD.
          [Majjhimanikaayo > Muulapa.n.naasapaa.li > 1. Muulapariyaayavaggo >
          1. Muulapariyaayasutta.m (which is the first sutta of MN)]
          >
          > The Burmese seems to have adopted "pathavi" throughout the Pali
          scripture for consistency sake. The other versions have
          both "pathavi" and "pathavi" in different places.
          >
          > I can't think of any place whereby the reading differs so much that
          the meanings seriously differs as well. Perhaps someone can point out
          one (if any).
          >
          >
          > >2. The CSCD claims to contain the 6th council version, but is the
          > >5th. What are the differences between the two versions?
          >
          > I'm not saying that the CSCD contains the 5th council version. What
          I said was that Thai university researchers say that it seems to take
          that version as its source.
          >
          > Anyhow, as I understand, some editing has been done in the sixth,
          such as
          > to correct grammatical errors (which can be controversial
          as scholars do disagree on certain grammar points).
          > to make similar words/phrase/suttas consistent (such as
          Karaniiyametta Sutta, which occurs in Suttanipaatapaa.li and
          Khuddakapaa.thapaa.li. FYI, there are a few very minor discrepancies
          between them within the CSCD itself. I would expect the Sixth Council
          editors to be able to weed out such obvious discrepancies in such a
          well-known sutta.)
          > to correct misspellings, etc.
          >
          >
          > >3. Which council versions do the following available tipitaka come
          > >from:
          > > (a) PTS Pali Tipitaka,
          >
          > It is a result of comparison among various versions (but obviously
          not the CS which has yet to happen then), and, where it differs, make
          decisions as to which they think should be the case. Sometimes, they
          have a new reading of their own.
          >
          > They are not always correct though. There's a big boo-boo in an
          earlier PTS Udana (ed. Steintal), where a sutta (I.5) clearly
          suggests that the Buddha said "aayasmaa Devadatto" was among
          the "braahmanaa", which he later qualify as "Those who, having ousted
          evil states, fare mindful at all times..." (tr. Masefield). That
          means "arahants", which Ven. Devadatta could not have been one.
          Masefield in his endnote express his surprise that "Neither Woodward
          nor Ireland seems to have noticed this rather obvious point."
          >
          > Fortunately, later PTS translators (such as Norman and Masefield)
          do not stick to the PTS Pali texts, but refer to various versions at
          hand. It is quite common for them to differ with the early PTS Pali
          text editors in choice of readings.
          >
          >
          > > (b) Budsir: http://www.budsir.org
          >
          > I can't remember for sure, but I think it's based on the
          Chulalongkorn edition. (There's another Thai edition called the
          Mahamakut. I think it goes by the two prime universities in Thailand.
          Does anyone have any idea which version is referred to as the Syaama
          edition in the CS?) I've no idea which council it is based upon.
          >
          > However, based upon studies ancient scripts, Norman thinks that the
          Tipitaka may not have reached the Thais through the Burmese, but
          through a different route.
          >
          > > (c) SLTP Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka:
          > >http://www.gold.ac.uk/history/ibric.htm
          >
          > I'm not sure which council/edition it is based upon but expect it
          to lean closer to the Siihala edition.
          >
          > As I was given the impression, this impetus for version is a
          dissatisfaction for the CS version. The Burmese scholar monks
          outnumbered the foreign ones at the council and did not pay enough
          attention to their views. That I think was very unfortunate indeed
          for the Sasana.
          >
          >
          > Even if we're happy with the CSCD (which is truly a magnificent
          production), it's good to have another (or more) source just in case
          you need to compare.
          >
          > For example, in the CSCD's A"nguttaranikaayo > Dasakanipaatapaa.li
          > Jaa.nusso.nivaggo > Jaa.nusso.nisutta.m, we find this:
          >
          > "Idha pana, braahma.na, ekacco paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato
          hoti ...pe... sammaadi.t.thiko hoti. So kaayassa bhedaa para.m
          mara.naa devaana.m sahabyata.m upapajjati. Yo devaana.m aahaaro, tena
          so tattha yaapeti, tena so tattha ti.t.thati. Idampi, braahma.na,
          a.t.thaana.m yattha.thitassa ta.m daana.m upakappati.
          >
          > A "na" is missing before the last word. It should be
          > ... ta.m daana.m na upakappati.
          >
          > You should find the same in other versions. Yet, the CSCD version
          did not even have a footnote of variant reading. This is obviously a
          typographic error.
          >
          >
          > Sorry for not being able to give a more complete answer than the
          above, Yong Peng. I hope others in the group could throw more light,
          and correct me if I'm wrong.
          >
          > peace
          >
          > Kumâra Bhikkhu
        • Kumaara Bhikkhu
          ... I ve done that, avuso. There has been at least six such emails to them. Something such as the CSCD is invaluable to the Buddhism world and so is worth
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 7, 2003
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            At 09:43 PM 07-01-03, abhidhammika <suanluzaw@...> wrote:
            >I think you should write to Vippasana Research Institute with your
            >findings of such errors so that the future editions of CSCD do not
            >contain them.

            I've done that, avuso. There has been at least six such emails to them. Something such as the CSCD is invaluable to the Buddhism world and so is worth making perfect.

            However, they rarely ever respond. At one time that they did, the sender mentioned about having received many feedback of errors from others too. He said they were questioning source of their texts.

            peace

            Kumâra Bhikkhu
          • Ong Teng Kee
            I just like to add that chula do produce their own 90 vol of cdrom tipitaka only/translation in thai script only by Pra dhammapitaka.They did print all sixth
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 8, 2003
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              I just like to add that chula do produce their own 90 vol of cdrom tipitaka only/translation in thai script only by Pra dhammapitaka.They did print all sixth council tika in thai script because no scholars in thai like to edit the texts.
              In sutta mala (saddniti vol 3)sutta 1319,1311 two pathavi are correct and kaccayana sutta 668 (in its tika)too.
              In later attayojana like those by shan monk -nanakitti and grammar tika explain a lot about which words they think I correct.Should it be cha or jha etc.
              We still have no idea why lanna thai reading are longer/unusual in verse and prose.See their dhammapada by PTS.see bodhi refuse to tran them in his sagathavagga verse because he didn't find com on it.Only deva living aroud there for a long time be able to tell where they get the leaves.
              The most important thing about pali eng etc translation is we have to use any theravadin countries nisaya.Bodhi should at least look at 3 burmese nisaya in books or leaves if not thai and sri lanka.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ong Teng Kee" <ongtk@...>
              Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 06:27:32 -0500
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: Variant readings, CS version, various Tipitakas (Re: [Pali] Re: New Pali Tipitaka Project)

              > There are too many in maha tika mula tika etc where the readings have completely meaning in thai and burmese.Just look at mahatika in BUDSIR version from mahamakut.The budsir has mahamakut tipitaka .jataka com,mahatika,vinaya com,sarathadipani etc but the rest of the com are chula series.Sixth council only used mahamakut because chula are new version after 1960.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...>
              > Date: Mon, 06 Jan 2003 19:33:23 +0800
              > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Variant readings, CS version, various Tipitakas (Re: [Pali] Re: New Pali Tipitaka Project)
              >
              > > At 12:28 AM 06-01-03, you wrote:
              > > >1. How do the different copies of the Pali Tipitaka (Thai, Sinhala,
              > > >Burmese) differ? I have a good idea of the difference between the
              > > >Chinese Agama and the Pali Nikaya, but I am not clear about the
              > > >distinctions of the variants of the Nikayas in Thai, Sinhala and
              > > >Burmese (scripts).
              > >
              > > Compared to the differences between the Agamas and the Nikayas, the variant readings among the various Pali scripts are relatively minor. Among the Nikayas, we find variants by small chunks only.
              > >
              > > If you have the CSCD, or most PTS Pali texts, you can find the variant readings as footnotes. (For CSCD, click on [F] when you see a sign something like two connected "S"s with two following digits.)
              > >
              > > More often than not, they are extremely minor and do not change the meaning, such as "pathavi" as preferred in the CSCD, compared to "pa.thavi" given as a variant reading as in the Siihala, Syaama (Thai), Kamboja, and PTS version, shown as footnote in the CSCD. [Majjhimanikaayo > Muulapa.n.naasapaa.li > 1. Muulapariyaayavaggo > 1. Muulapariyaayasutta.m (which is the first sutta of MN)]
              > >
              > > The Burmese seems to have adopted "pathavi" throughout the Pali scripture for consistency sake. The other versions have both "pathavi" and "pathavi" in different places.
              > >
              > > I can't think of any place whereby the reading differs so much that the meanings seriously differs as well. Perhaps someone can point out one (if any).
              > >
              > >
              > > >2. The CSCD claims to contain the 6th council version, but is the
              > > >5th. What are the differences between the two versions?
              > >
              > > I'm not saying that the CSCD contains the 5th council version. What I said was that Thai university researchers say that it seems to take that version as its source.
              > >
              > > Anyhow, as I understand, some editing has been done in the sixth, such as
              > > to correct grammatical errors (which can be controversial as scholars do disagree on certain grammar points).
              > > to make similar words/phrase/suttas consistent (such as Karaniiyametta Sutta, which occurs in Suttanipaatapaa.li and Khuddakapaa.thapaa.li. FYI, there are a few very minor discrepancies between them within the CSCD itself. I would expect the Sixth Council editors to be able to weed out such obvious discrepancies in such a well-known sutta.)
              > > to correct misspellings, etc.
              > >
              > >
              > > >3. Which council versions do the following available tipitaka come
              > > >from:
              > > > (a) PTS Pali Tipitaka,
              > >
              > > It is a result of comparison among various versions (but obviously not the CS which has yet to happen then), and, where it differs, make decisions as to which they think should be the case. Sometimes, they have a new reading of their own.
              > >
              > > They are not always correct though. There's a big boo-boo in an earlier PTS Udana (ed. Steintal), where a sutta (I.5) clearly suggests that the Buddha said "aayasmaa Devadatto" was among the "braahmanaa", which he later qualify as "Those who, having ousted evil states, fare mindful at all times..." (tr. Masefield). That means "arahants", which Ven. Devadatta could not have been one. Masefield in his endnote express his surprise that "Neither Woodward nor Ireland seems to have noticed this rather obvious point."
              > >
              > > Fortunately, later PTS translators (such as Norman and Masefield) do not stick to the PTS Pali texts, but refer to various versions at hand. It is quite common for them to differ with the early PTS Pali text editors in choice of readings.
              > >
              > >
              > > > (b) Budsir: http://www.budsir.org
              > >
              > > I can't remember for sure, but I think it's based on the Chulalongkorn edition. (There's another Thai edition called the Mahamakut. I think it goes by the two prime universities in Thailand. Does anyone have any idea which version is referred to as the Syaama edition in the CS?) I've no idea which council it is based upon.
              > >
              > > However, based upon studies ancient scripts, Norman thinks that the Tipitaka may not have reached the Thais through the Burmese, but through a different route.
              > >
              > > > (c) SLTP Buddha Jayanti Tipitaka:
              > > >http://www.gold.ac.uk/history/ibric.htm
              > >
              > > I'm not sure which council/edition it is based upon but expect it to lean closer to the Siihala edition.
              > >
              > > As I was given the impression, this impetus for version is a dissatisfaction for the CS version. The Burmese scholar monks outnumbered the foreign ones at the council and did not pay enough attention to their views. That I think was very unfortunate indeed for the Sasana.
              > >
              > >
              > > Even if we're happy with the CSCD (which is truly a magnificent production), it's good to have another (or more) source just in case you need to compare.
              > >
              > > For example, in the CSCD's A"nguttaranikaayo > Dasakanipaatapaa.li > Jaa.nusso.nivaggo > Jaa.nusso.nisutta.m, we find this:
              > >
              > > “Idha pana, braahma.na, ekacco paa.naatipaataa pa.tivirato hoti ...pe... sammaadi.t.thiko hoti. So kaayassa bhedaa para.m mara.naa devaana.m sahabyata.m upapajjati. Yo devaana.m aahaaro, tena so tattha yaapeti, tena so tattha ti.t.thati. Idampi, braahma.na, a.t.thaana.m yattha.thitassa ta.m daana.m upakappati.
              > >
              > > A "na" is missing before the last word. It should be
              > > ... ta.m daana.m na upakappati.
              > >
              > > You should find the same in other versions. Yet, the CSCD version did not even have a footnote of variant reading. This is obviously a typographic error.
              > >
              > >
              > > Sorry for not being able to give a more complete answer than the above, Yong Peng. I hope others in the group could throw more light, and correct me if I'm wrong.
              > >
              > > peace
              > >
              > > Kumâra Bhikkhu
              > >
              > >
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              > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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              > > [Discussion] http://tipitaka.suddenlaunch.com
              > >
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              > >
              > >
              >
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            • Ong Yong Peng <ypong001@yahoo.com>
              Dear Ven. Kumara, Teng Kee and Lu Zaw, thanks for all the information. I read them with keen interest as I am a history guy, it is quite a pity that such
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 8, 2003
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                Dear Ven. Kumara, Teng Kee and Lu Zaw,

                thanks for all the information. I read them with keen interest as I
                am a 'history' guy, it is quite a pity that such information are not
                widely available in English.

                metta,
                Yong Peng.

                --- Ong Teng Kee wrote:
                > I just like to add that chula do produce their own 90 vol of cdrom
                tipitaka only/translation in thai script only by Pra
                dhammapitaka.They did print all sixth council tika in thai script
                because no scholars in thai like to edit the texts.
                > In sutta mala (saddniti vol 3)sutta 1319,1311 two pathavi are
                correct and kaccayana sutta 668 (in its tika)too.
                > In later attayojana like those by shan monk -nanakitti and grammar
                tika explain a lot about which words they think I correct.Should it
                be cha or jha etc.
                > We still have no idea why lanna thai reading are longer/unusual in
                verse and prose.See their dhammapada by PTS.see bodhi refuse to tran
                them in his sagathavagga verse because he didn't find com on it.Only
                deva living aroud there for a long time be able to tell where they
                get the leaves.
                > The most important thing about pali eng etc translation is we have
                to use any theravadin countries nisaya.Bodhi should at least look at
                3 burmese nisaya in books or leaves if not thai and sri lanka.
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