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Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampaj ānakārī in MN 119?

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Bryan and Frank, ... N: I like Bryan s well thought-out post. Words can help us to a certain extent, but then what matters above all are the realities
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 18, 2012
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      Dear Bryan and Frank,
      Op 18-mrt-2012, om 14:22 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

      > As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas)
      > that
      > language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from
      > the mouth of
      > Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the
      > words can take
      > us only so far,
      -------
      N: I like Bryan's well thought-out post. Words can help us to a
      certain extent, but then what matters above all are the realities
      they represent. Through satipa.t.thaana characteristics of realities
      can be directly known, without the need to think about them. Take
      seeing, we all know that seeing sees, but when there can be awareness
      of its characteristic when it appears, it can be understood as an
      element, a dhaatu that knows an object, different from ruupa that
      does not know anything. This is a beginning of understanding, but
      sure, it takes time to develop.

      ------
      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frank
      Dear Bryan, Thanks very much for the explanation. The strewn flowers gives me a good example of how levels of intensification in the core verb don t
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 19, 2012
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        Dear Bryan,
        Thanks very much for the explanation. The strewn flowers gives me a
        good example of how levels of intensification in the core verb don't
        necessarily suggest levels of depth in practice.

        Metta,
        Frank

        On 3/18/2012 6:22 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
        >
        > Dear Frank,
        >
        > To me the words can only be taken as a guide for different
        > "levels" or intensities of knowing. Nina is quite right in that the
        > main point of the discourse is understand things as they are, to go
        > beyond the
        > conceptual (and it is arguable whether there is such a thing as
        > "levels" of knowing at all). But this kind of progression
        > occurs many times in the writings (core verb, then different kinds of
        > intensifying prefixes), usually I think as a form of intensification: e.g.
        >
        > Mahāparnibbāna
        > sutta (2, 137):
        > tāni tathāgatassa sarīraṃ okiranti ajjhokiranti abhippakiranti
        > tathāgatassa pūjāya, describing how the flowers sprinkle
        > over the Buddha‘s body. okiranti means to "strew" (ava > o-
        > meaning "down"). abhipakiranti (abhipra-) has the additional sense of
        > "completely" and ajjho (< Skt. adhyava-) also has the sense
        > of "down from above." In other words they
        > all seem to mean the same or something similar, the intensification
        > coming as
        > much from the waxing syllable principle (4-5-6) as from the words
        > themselves.
        >
        > As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas) that
        > language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from the
        > mouth of
        > Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the words
        > can take
        > us only so far,
        >
        > Metta, Bryan
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
        > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:04:21 PM
        > Subject: Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in
        > MN 119?
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Bryan,
        > Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED,
        > *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware.
        > and
        > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
        > and finally
        > sampajānāti means "to know perfectly"
        >
        > One of the monks I asked said Ajaan Geoff translates pajanati as
        > discernment and sampajanakari as making yourself fully alert. The key is
        > in the "kari," "making" in that it requires more effort, is more active,
        > than pajanati, which would be more purely observational.
        >
        > All of these comments do help somewhat in differentiating how the
        > "walking/sitting/lying/standing" is to practiced under the two
        > categories, yet it still doesn't give me a clear picture of exactly how
        > it should be practiced, other than the general idea that under
        > "sampajānati kari" it's is a little "deeper".
        >
        > Metta,
        > Frank
        > On 3/13/2012 6:38 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Frank,
        > >
        > > In all cases the root verb is pajānāti which means to know or
        > > understand. With the prejfix sam- it expresses thoroughness, intensity
        > > or completeness (cf sam in Monier Williams), so that sampajānāti means
        > > "to know perfectly). I take it as simply a higher level of knowing
        > > than simply pajānāti, if such is possible.
        > > All three words sampajaññā, sampajāna and sampajānakāri are from this
        > > verbal root (sam-pra-jñā in Sanskrit), however the last one has a
        > > suffix -kārī added on which means "doing" or "making".
        > >
        > > Also for your interest, the word pahitatta, in both these sections has
        > > an additional meaning of "abandoned self", as well as its usual
        > > meaning of "directed or resolute self". The word can be derived from
        > > either pra+dhā (Pāli padahati, to exert, or strive, past participle
        > > pahita) or pa+hā/pa+hi (Pāli pajahati, past participle pahāta or
        > > pahīna; or pahiṇati (Skt. pahiṇoti), past participle pahita and
        > > equivalent in meaning to pa+hā) both meaning to abandon. because of
        > > the change of -dh- > -h- their past participles (pahita) coincide. The
        > > compound's dual meaning is especially clear in this context, as ye
        > > gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti "any memories & resolves related
        > > to the household life are abandoned" and the same verb form
        > > (pahīyanti., which is the passive of pra + hā) is employed.
        > >
        > > Metta, Bryan
        > >
        > > ________________________________
        > > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
        > <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
        > > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
        > <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:03:02 PM
        > > Subject: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Pāḷi friends,
        > >
        > > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
        > > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
        > > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
        > > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
        > >
        > > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
        > > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
        > > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
        > > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
        > >
        > > and
        > >
        > > pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
        > > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
        > >
        > > So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
        > > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
        > > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
        > > meditation and satipatthana practice.
        > >
        > > Metta,
        > > Frank
        > >
        > > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
        > >
        > > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
        > > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am
        > > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
        > > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus
        > > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
        > > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers
        > > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
        > > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
        > >
        > > (postures)
        > >
        > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
        > > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
        > > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā panassa kāyo paṇihito
        > > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino
        > > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ
        > > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
        > > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
        > >
        > > (fully alert)
        > >
        > > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
        > > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
        > > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl...
        > > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
        > > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
        > > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he
        > > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
        > > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
        > > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
        > > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
        > >
        > > (sampajāna)
        > >
        > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī
        > > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
        > > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe sampajānakārī hoti, asite
        > > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme sampajānakārī
        > > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī
        > > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā
        > > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
        > > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
        > > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



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      • Kumara Bhikkhu
        I know this is an old thread. Just rediscovered it as I was cleaning my mailbox. I wondered about this for a long time, until I found out how the Buddha
        Message 3 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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          I know this is an old thread. Just rediscovered
          it as I was cleaning my mailbox.

          I wondered about this for a long time, until I
          found out how the Buddha defined sampajana in SN 47:35:

          And how, monks, is a monk clearly knowing?
          Here, monks, a monk’s feelings are known when
          they arise, known when they remain present and known when they go away;
          [his] thoughts are known when they arise, known
          when they remain present and known when they go away;
          [his] perceptions are known when they arise,
          known when they remain present and known when they go away.
          It is in such a way, monks, that a monk is clearly knowing.
          Monks, a mindful monk should dwell clearly
          knowing. This is our instruction to you.

          So, it seems that sampajana refers to being aware
          of the activities of feelings, thoughts, and
          perceptions, while engaging in any physical activities.

          frank wrote thus at 01:03 AM 06-02-12:
          >Dear Pāḷi friends,
          >
          >In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
          >sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
          >postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
          >"sampajānakārī " .

          <snip>


          >So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
          >"walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
          >My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
          >meditation and satipatthana practice.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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