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Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampaj ānakārī in MN 119?

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Frank, ... N: Yes. Sampaja~n~na is another term for pa~n~naa. We often find the combination: sati sampaja~n~na, mindfulness and understanding. When there
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 13, 2012
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      Dear Frank,
      Op 5-feb-2012, om 18:03 heeft frank het volgende geschreven:
      > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
      > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
      > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
      > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
      >
      > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
      > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
      > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
      > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
      >
      -------
      N: Yes. Sampaja~n~na is another term for pa~n~naa. We often find the
      combination: sati sampaja~n~na, mindfulness and understanding. When
      there is mindfulness of a reality such as hardness appearing at this
      moment, there can be at the same time understanding of it that sees
      it as just a kind of ruupa, material phenomenon, not mine, not self.
      ------
      > F: pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
      > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
      >
      ------
      N: Your definition is right. Pa~n~na can clearly understand whatever
      dhamma appears, it understands its nature as impermanent, dukkha,
      anattaa.
      ------
      >
      > F: So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
      > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus
      > "sampajānakārī "?
      > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
      > meditation and satipatthana practice.
      >
      ------
      N: While walking there are different mental phenomena, naama, and
      physical phenomena, ruupa, appearing, one at a time. For instance,
      there is seeing, or hardness, or feeling. When there is sati
      sampaja~n~na these can be understood as just different dhammas that
      do not last. We can find out that there is no person, no "I" who is
      walking.
      From the commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (The Way of
      Mindfulness, by Soma Thera):
      <In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who
      goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not
      the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the
      going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of
      oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows
      thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought
      produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation
      produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so
      forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the
      process of oscillation is called going.>
      N: Just different phenomena going on, no living being.
      Quote: <Therefore the commentator said:
      Just as a ship goes on by winds impelled,
      Just as a shaft goes by the bowstring's force,
      So goes this body in its forward course
      Full driven by the vibrant thrust of air.
      As to the puppet's back the dodge-thread's tied
      So to the body-doll the mind is joined
      And pulled by that the body moves, stands, sits.
      Where is the living being that can stand,
      Or walk, by force of its own inner strength,
      Without conditions that give it support?>
      More on sampajanajakari, in italics is the subco. :

      <Sampajanakari = "Practicing clear comprehension." Doing without fail
      all actions with clear comprehension [sampajaññena sabba kicca
      kari]. Or the doing of only clear comprehension [sampajaññasseva va
      kari].
      Clear comprehension [sampajananam] = comprehending clearly
      [sampajanam]. Both words mean the same thing; their difference is
      only one of affix. Doing without fail all actions with clear
      comprehension is the character of doing what ought to be done by
      oneself, with clear comprehension [attana kattabba kiccassa karana
      sila]. The doing of only clear comprehension is the character of
      practicing clear comprehension [sampajanassa karana sila].

      For the yogi practices only clear comprehension and is nowhere bereft
      of clear comprehension, in going forwards and going backwards.There
      are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose
      [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya sampajañña], of
      resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion [asammoha
      sampajañña]....>

      -----

      N: Many details about these four. Resort, gocara, is the field which
      are the objects of mindfulness and non-delusion, asammoha
      sampaja~n~na, understanding realities as they are. Anyway, the
      meaning is not: know what one is doing, not the conventional sense,
      but: being mindful of the dhammas that appear one at a time through
      six doorways, no matter where and when, in order to understand the
      truth of dhammas.

      ------

      Nina.

      -------





      >
      > Metta,
      > Frank
      >
      > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
      >
      > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
      > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns,
      > 'I am
      > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
      > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains
      > thus
      > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
      > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind
      > gathers
      > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
      > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
      >
      > (postures)
      >
      > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā
      > ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
      > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā
      > ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
      > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā
      > panassa kāyo paṇihito
      > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa
      > ātāpino
      > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti.
      > Tesaṃ
      > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
      > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
      >
      > (fully alert)
      >
      > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
      > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
      > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his
      > bowl...
      > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
      > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
      > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And
      > as he
      > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
      > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
      > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
      > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
      >
      > (sampajāna)
      >
      > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante
      > sampajānakārī
      > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
      > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe
      > sampajānakārī hoti, asite
      > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme
      > sampajānakārī
      > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve
      > sampajānakārī
      > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye
      > gehasitā
      > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva
      > cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
      > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
      > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • frank
      Dear Bryan, Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED, *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware. and pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly. and
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 14, 2012
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        Dear Bryan,
        Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED,
        *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware.
        and
        pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
        and finally
        sampajānāti means "to know perfectly"

        One of the monks I asked said Ajaan Geoff translates pajanati as
        discernment and sampajanakari as making yourself fully alert. The key is
        in the "kari," "making" in that it requires more effort, is more active,
        than pajanati, which would be more purely observational.

        All of these comments do help somewhat in differentiating how the
        "walking/sitting/lying/standing" is to practiced under the two
        categories, yet it still doesn't give me a clear picture of exactly how
        it should be practiced, other than the general idea that under
        "sampajānati kari" it's is a little "deeper".

        Metta,
        Frank
        On 3/13/2012 6:38 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
        >
        > Dear Frank,
        >
        > In all cases the root verb is pajānāti which means to know or
        > understand. With the prejfix sam- it expresses thoroughness, intensity
        > or completeness (cf sam in Monier Williams), so that sampajānāti means
        > "to know perfectly). I take it as simply a higher level of knowing
        > than simply pajānāti, if such is possible.
        > All three words sampajaññā, sampajāna and sampajānakāri are from this
        > verbal root (sam-pra-jñā in Sanskrit), however the last one has a
        > suffix -kārī added on which means "doing" or "making".
        >
        > Also for your interest, the word pahitatta, in both these sections has
        > an additional meaning of "abandoned self", as well as its usual
        > meaning of "directed or resolute self". The word can be derived from
        > either pra+dhā (Pāli padahati, to exert, or strive, past participle
        > pahita) or pa+hā/pa+hi (Pāli pajahati, past participle pahāta or
        > pahīna; or pahiṇati (Skt. pahiṇoti), past participle pahita and
        > equivalent in meaning to pa+hā) both meaning to abandon. because of
        > the change of -dh- > -h- their past participles (pahita) coincide. The
        > compound's dual meaning is especially clear in this context, as ye
        > gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti "any memories & resolves related
        > to the household life are abandoned" and the same verb form
        > (pahīyanti., which is the passive of pra + hā) is employed.
        >
        > Metta, Bryan
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
        > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:03:02 PM
        > Subject: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Pāḷi friends,
        >
        > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
        > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
        > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
        > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
        >
        > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
        > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
        > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
        > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
        >
        > and
        >
        > pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
        > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
        >
        > So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
        > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
        > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
        > meditation and satipatthana practice.
        >
        > Metta,
        > Frank
        >
        > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
        >
        > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
        > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am
        > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
        > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus
        > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
        > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers
        > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
        > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
        >
        > (postures)
        >
        > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
        > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
        > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā panassa kāyo paṇihito
        > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino
        > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ
        > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
        > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
        >
        > (fully alert)
        >
        > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
        > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
        > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl...
        > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
        > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
        > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he
        > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
        > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
        > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
        > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
        >
        > (sampajāna)
        >
        > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī
        > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
        > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe sampajānakārī hoti, asite
        > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme sampajānakārī
        > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī
        > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā
        > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
        > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
        > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • frank
        Dear Nina, Thanks for the Abhidhamma and commentary perspective. It is helpful. Do they explain how the walking/standing/sitting/lying is to practiced
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 14, 2012
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          Dear Nina,
          Thanks for the Abhidhamma and commentary perspective. It is helpful.
          Do they explain how the walking/standing/sitting/lying is to practiced
          differently under the two categories? My impression of reading what you
          wrote seems that the 4 resorts would apply in both categories of
          sampajanakari and pajanati.

          Metta,
          Frank

          On 3/13/2012 6:53 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
          >
          > Dear Frank,
          > Op 5-feb-2012, om 18:03 heeft frank het volgende geschreven:
          > > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
          > > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
          > > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
          > > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
          > >
          > > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
          > > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
          > > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
          > > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
          > >
          > -------
          > N: Yes. Sampaja~n~na is another term for pa~n~naa. We often find the
          > combination: sati sampaja~n~na, mindfulness and understanding. When
          > there is mindfulness of a reality such as hardness appearing at this
          > moment, there can be at the same time understanding of it that sees
          > it as just a kind of ruupa, material phenomenon, not mine, not self.
          > ------
          > > F: pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
          > > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
          > >
          > ------
          > N: Your definition is right. Pa~n~na can clearly understand whatever
          > dhamma appears, it understands its nature as impermanent, dukkha,
          > anattaa.
          > ------
          > >
          > > F: So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
          > > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus
          > > "sampajānakārī "?
          > > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
          > > meditation and satipatthana practice.
          > >
          > ------
          > N: While walking there are different mental phenomena, naama, and
          > physical phenomena, ruupa, appearing, one at a time. For instance,
          > there is seeing, or hardness, or feeling. When there is sati
          > sampaja~n~na these can be understood as just different dhammas that
          > do not last. We can find out that there is no person, no "I" who is
          > walking.
          > From the commentary to the satipa.t.thaanasutta (The Way of
          > Mindfulness, by Soma Thera):
          > <In the elucidation of these questions the following is said: Who
          > goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not
          > the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the
          > going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of
          > oscillation born of mental activity. Because of that this yogi knows
          > thus: If there arises the thought, "I shall go," that thought
          > produces the process of oscillation; the process of oscillation
          > produces expression (the bodily movement which indicates going and so
          > forth). The moving on of the whole body through the diffusion of the
          > process of oscillation is called going.>
          > N: Just different phenomena going on, no living being.
          > Quote: <Therefore the commentator said:
          > Just as a ship goes on by winds impelled,
          > Just as a shaft goes by the bowstring's force,
          > So goes this body in its forward course
          > Full driven by the vibrant thrust of air.
          > As to the puppet's back the dodge-thread's tied
          > So to the body-doll the mind is joined
          > And pulled by that the body moves, stands, sits.
          > Where is the living being that can stand,
          > Or walk, by force of its own inner strength,
          > Without conditions that give it support?>
          > More on sampajanajakari, in italics is the subco. :
          >
          > <Sampajanakari = "Practicing clear comprehension." Doing without fail
          > all actions with clear comprehension [sampajaññena sabba kicca
          > kari]. Or the doing of only clear comprehension [sampajaññasseva va
          > kari].
          > Clear comprehension [sampajananam] = comprehending clearly
          > [sampajanam]. Both words mean the same thing; their difference is
          > only one of affix. Doing without fail all actions with clear
          > comprehension is the character of doing what ought to be done by
          > oneself, with clear comprehension [attana kattabba kiccassa karana
          > sila]. The doing of only clear comprehension is the character of
          > practicing clear comprehension [sampajanassa karana sila].
          >
          > For the yogi practices only clear comprehension and is nowhere bereft
          > of clear comprehension, in going forwards and going backwards.There
          > are these four kinds of comprehension: clear comprehension of purpose
          > [satthaka sampajañña], of suitability [sappaya sampajañña], of
          > resort [gocara sampajañña], and of non-delusion [asammoha
          > sampajañña]....>
          >
          > -----
          >
          > N: Many details about these four. Resort, gocara, is the field which
          > are the objects of mindfulness and non-delusion, asammoha
          > sampaja~n~na, understanding realities as they are. Anyway, the
          > meaning is not: know what one is doing, not the conventional sense,
          > but: being mindful of the dhammas that appear one at a time through
          > six doorways, no matter where and when, in order to understand the
          > truth of dhammas.
          >
          > ------
          >
          > Nina.
          >
          > -------
          >
          > >
          > > Metta,
          > > Frank
          > >
          > > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
          > >
          > > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
          > > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns,
          > > 'I am
          > > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
          > > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains
          > > thus
          > > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
          > > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind
          > > gathers
          > > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
          > > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
          > >
          > > (postures)
          > >
          > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā
          > > ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
          > > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā
          > > ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
          > > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā
          > > panassa kāyo paṇihito
          > > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa
          > > ātāpino
          > > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti.
          > > Tesaṃ
          > > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
          > > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
          > >
          > > (fully alert)
          > >
          > > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
          > > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
          > > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his
          > > bowl...
          > > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
          > > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
          > > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And
          > > as he
          > > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
          > > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
          > > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
          > > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
          > >
          > > (sampajāna)
          > >
          > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante
          > > sampajānakārī
          > > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
          > > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe
          > > sampajānakārī hoti, asite
          > > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme
          > > sampajānakārī
          > > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve
          > > sampajānakārī
          > > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye
          > > gehasitā
          > > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva
          > > cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
          > > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
          > > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bhikkhu Analayo
          The Center for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg invites anyone interested to join our e learning sutta study course this semester. Participation
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 15, 2012
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            The Center for Buddhist Studies at the University of Hamburg invites anyone interested to join our e learning sutta study course this semester. Participation if free of charge, the only requirement is online registration before the 15th of April and internet access to view the lectures. We will be reading suttas from the Madhyama-aagama in comparison with the Pali parallels, for more information please visit our website

            http://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg.de/fileadmin/pdf/analayo/lectures.htm

            with much mettaa

            Bhikkhu Analayo


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Frank, ... N: Pa~n~naa is what matters. All phenomena that appear, no matter in what posture, have to be eventually understood as impermanent, dukkha,
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 17, 2012
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              Dear Frank,
              Op 14-mrt-2012, om 19:09 heeft frank het volgende geschreven:

              > Thanks for the Abhidhamma and commentary perspective. It is helpful.
              > Do they explain how the walking/standing/sitting/lying is to practiced
              > differently under the two categories? My impression of reading what
              > you
              > wrote seems that the 4 resorts would apply in both categories of
              > sampajanakari and pajanati.
              -------
              N: Pa~n~naa is what matters. All phenomena that appear, no matter in
              what posture, have to be eventually understood as impermanent,
              dukkha, anattaa. When we think of a posture the object of thinking is
              a concept, but in the ultimate sense there are no postures, only
              naama and ruupa. These have to be understood as they are. It does not
              matter what word is used, sampajanakari or pajanati, but
              understanding should be developed.
              ------
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear Frank, To me the words can only be taken as a guide for different levels or intensities of knowing. Nina is quite right in that the main point of the
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 18, 2012
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                Dear Frank,

                To me the words can only be taken as a guide for different
                "levels" or intensities of knowing. Nina is quite right in that the
                main point of the discourse is understand things as they are, to go beyond the
                conceptual (and it is arguable whether there is such a thing as
                "levels" of knowing at all). But  this kind of progression
                occurs many times in the writings (core verb, then different kinds of
                intensifying prefixes), usually I think as a form of intensification: e.g.

                Mahāparnibbāna
                sutta (2, 137):
                tāni tathāgatassa sarīraṃ okiranti ajjhokiranti abhippakiranti tathāgatassa pūjāya, describing how the flowers sprinkle
                over the Buddha‘s body.  okiranti means to "strew" (ava > o-
                meaning "down"). abhipakiranti (abhipra-) has the additional sense of
                "completely" and ajjho (< Skt. adhyava-) also has the sense
                of  "down from above."  In other words they
                all seem to mean the same or something similar, the intensification coming as
                much from the waxing syllable principle (4-5-6) as from the words themselves.


                As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas) that
                language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from the mouth of
                Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the words can take
                us only so far,
                 
                Metta, Bryan

                ________________________________
                From: frank <fcckuan@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:04:21 PM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?


                 
                Dear Bryan,
                Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED,
                *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware.
                and
                pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
                and finally
                sampajānāti means "to know perfectly"

                One of the monks I asked said Ajaan Geoff translates pajanati as
                discernment and sampajanakari as making yourself fully alert. The key is
                in the "kari," "making" in that it requires more effort, is more active,
                than pajanati, which would be more purely observational.

                All of these comments do help somewhat in differentiating how the
                "walking/sitting/lying/standing" is to practiced under the two
                categories, yet it still doesn't give me a clear picture of exactly how
                it should be practiced, other than the general idea that under
                "sampajānati kari" it's is a little "deeper".

                Metta,
                Frank
                On 3/13/2012 6:38 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
                >
                > Dear Frank,
                >
                > In all cases the root verb is pajānāti which means to know or
                > understand. With the prejfix sam- it expresses thoroughness, intensity
                > or completeness (cf sam in Monier Williams), so that sampajānāti means
                > "to know perfectly). I take it as simply a higher level of knowing
                > than simply pajānāti, if such is possible.
                > All three words sampajaññā, sampajāna and sampajānakāri are from this
                > verbal root (sam-pra-jñā in Sanskrit), however the last one has a
                > suffix -kārī added on which means "doing" or "making".
                >
                > Also for your interest, the word pahitatta, in both these sections has
                > an additional meaning of "abandoned self", as well as its usual
                > meaning of "directed or resolute self". The word can be derived from
                > either pra+dhā (Pāli padahati, to exert, or strive, past participle
                > pahita) or pa+hā/pa+hi (Pāli pajahati, past participle pahāta or
                > pahīna; or pahiṇati (Skt. pahiṇoti), past participle pahita and
                > equivalent in meaning to pa+hā) both meaning to abandon. because of
                > the change of -dh- > -h- their past participles (pahita) coincide. The
                > compound's dual meaning is especially clear in this context, as ye
                > gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti "any memories & resolves related
                > to the household life are abandoned" and the same verb form
                > (pahīyanti., which is the passive of pra + hā) is employed.
                >
                > Metta, Bryan
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:03:02 PM
                > Subject: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Pāḷi friends,
                >
                > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
                > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
                > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
                > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
                >
                > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
                > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
                > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
                > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
                >
                > and
                >
                > pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
                > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
                >
                > So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
                > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
                > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
                > meditation and satipatthana practice.
                >
                > Metta,
                > Frank
                >
                > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
                >
                > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
                > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am
                > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
                > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus
                > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
                > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers
                > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
                > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
                >
                > (postures)
                >
                > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
                > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
                > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā panassa kāyo paṇihito
                > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino
                > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ
                > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
                > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
                >
                > (fully alert)
                >
                > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
                > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
                > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl...
                > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
                > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
                > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he
                > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
                > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
                > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
                > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
                >
                > (sampajāna)
                >
                > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī
                > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
                > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe sampajānakārī hoti, asite
                > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme sampajānakārī
                > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī
                > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā
                > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
                > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
                > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Bryan and Frank, ... N: I like Bryan s well thought-out post. Words can help us to a certain extent, but then what matters above all are the realities
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 18, 2012
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                  Dear Bryan and Frank,
                  Op 18-mrt-2012, om 14:22 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                  > As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas)
                  > that
                  > language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from
                  > the mouth of
                  > Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the
                  > words can take
                  > us only so far,
                  -------
                  N: I like Bryan's well thought-out post. Words can help us to a
                  certain extent, but then what matters above all are the realities
                  they represent. Through satipa.t.thaana characteristics of realities
                  can be directly known, without the need to think about them. Take
                  seeing, we all know that seeing sees, but when there can be awareness
                  of its characteristic when it appears, it can be understood as an
                  element, a dhaatu that knows an object, different from ruupa that
                  does not know anything. This is a beginning of understanding, but
                  sure, it takes time to develop.

                  ------
                  Nina.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • frank
                  Dear Bryan, Thanks very much for the explanation. The strewn flowers gives me a good example of how levels of intensification in the core verb don t
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 19, 2012
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                    Dear Bryan,
                    Thanks very much for the explanation. The strewn flowers gives me a
                    good example of how levels of intensification in the core verb don't
                    necessarily suggest levels of depth in practice.

                    Metta,
                    Frank

                    On 3/18/2012 6:22 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Frank,
                    >
                    > To me the words can only be taken as a guide for different
                    > "levels" or intensities of knowing. Nina is quite right in that the
                    > main point of the discourse is understand things as they are, to go
                    > beyond the
                    > conceptual (and it is arguable whether there is such a thing as
                    > "levels" of knowing at all). But this kind of progression
                    > occurs many times in the writings (core verb, then different kinds of
                    > intensifying prefixes), usually I think as a form of intensification: e.g.
                    >
                    > Mahāparnibbāna
                    > sutta (2, 137):
                    > tāni tathāgatassa sarīraṃ okiranti ajjhokiranti abhippakiranti
                    > tathāgatassa pūjāya, describing how the flowers sprinkle
                    > over the Buddha‘s body. okiranti means to "strew" (ava > o-
                    > meaning "down"). abhipakiranti (abhipra-) has the additional sense of
                    > "completely" and ajjho (< Skt. adhyava-) also has the sense
                    > of "down from above." In other words they
                    > all seem to mean the same or something similar, the intensification
                    > coming as
                    > much from the waxing syllable principle (4-5-6) as from the words
                    > themselves.
                    >
                    > As is well known the Buddha did not believe (unlike the tīrthikas) that
                    > language had any innate sense of meaning; words did not come from the
                    > mouth of
                    > Brahma but were arbitrary conventions created by humans. So the words
                    > can take
                    > us only so far,
                    >
                    > Metta, Bryan
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2012 2:04:21 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in
                    > MN 119?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Bryan,
                    > Thanks for the explanation. So from CPED,
                    > *jānāti* /ñā/ + nā knows; finds out; to be aware.
                    > and
                    > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
                    > and finally
                    > sampajānāti means "to know perfectly"
                    >
                    > One of the monks I asked said Ajaan Geoff translates pajanati as
                    > discernment and sampajanakari as making yourself fully alert. The key is
                    > in the "kari," "making" in that it requires more effort, is more active,
                    > than pajanati, which would be more purely observational.
                    >
                    > All of these comments do help somewhat in differentiating how the
                    > "walking/sitting/lying/standing" is to practiced under the two
                    > categories, yet it still doesn't give me a clear picture of exactly how
                    > it should be practiced, other than the general idea that under
                    > "sampajānati kari" it's is a little "deeper".
                    >
                    > Metta,
                    > Frank
                    > On 3/13/2012 6:38 AM, Bryan Levman wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Frank,
                    > >
                    > > In all cases the root verb is pajānāti which means to know or
                    > > understand. With the prejfix sam- it expresses thoroughness, intensity
                    > > or completeness (cf sam in Monier Williams), so that sampajānāti means
                    > > "to know perfectly). I take it as simply a higher level of knowing
                    > > than simply pajānāti, if such is possible.
                    > > All three words sampajaññā, sampajāna and sampajānakāri are from this
                    > > verbal root (sam-pra-jñā in Sanskrit), however the last one has a
                    > > suffix -kārī added on which means "doing" or "making".
                    > >
                    > > Also for your interest, the word pahitatta, in both these sections has
                    > > an additional meaning of "abandoned self", as well as its usual
                    > > meaning of "directed or resolute self". The word can be derived from
                    > > either pra+dhā (Pāli padahati, to exert, or strive, past participle
                    > > pahita) or pa+hā/pa+hi (Pāli pajahati, past participle pahāta or
                    > > pahīna; or pahiṇati (Skt. pahiṇoti), past participle pahita and
                    > > equivalent in meaning to pa+hā) both meaning to abandon. because of
                    > > the change of -dh- > -h- their past participles (pahita) coincide. The
                    > > compound's dual meaning is especially clear in this context, as ye
                    > > gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti "any memories & resolves related
                    > > to the household life are abandoned" and the same verb form
                    > > (pahīyanti., which is the passive of pra + hā) is employed.
                    > >
                    > > Metta, Bryan
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: frank <fcckuan@... <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>
                    > <mailto:fcckuan%40gmail.com>>
                    > > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:03:02 PM
                    > > Subject: [Pali] difference between pajānati and sampajānakārī in MN 119?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dear Pāḷi friends,
                    > >
                    > > In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
                    > > sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
                    > > postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
                    > > "sampajānakārī " . CPED defines
                    > >
                    > > sampajañña nt. discrimination; comprehension.
                    > > sampajāna adj. thoughtful.
                    > > sampajānakārī 3 mindful.
                    > > (are all of those 3 words based on the same stem?)
                    > >
                    > > and
                    > >
                    > > pajānanā f. knowledge; understanding; discernment.
                    > > pajānāti pa +ñā + nā knows clearly.
                    > >
                    > > So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
                    > > "walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
                    > > My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
                    > > meditation and satipatthana practice.
                    > >
                    > > Metta,
                    > > Frank
                    > >
                    > > Excerpts from Thanissaro's english and burmese tipitaka follow:
                    > >
                    > > "Furthermore, when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When
                    > > standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am
                    > > sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however
                    > > his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it. And as he remains thus
                    > > heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves related to the
                    > > household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning his mind gathers
                    > > & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is how a monk
                    > > develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
                    > >
                    > > (postures)
                    > >
                    > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti,
                    > > ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti,
                    > > sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti. Yathā yathā vā panassa kāyo paṇihito
                    > > hoti, tathā tathā naṃ pajānāti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino
                    > > pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ
                    > > pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati sannisīdati ekodi hoti
                    > > samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
                    > >
                    > > (fully alert)
                    > >
                    > > "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully
                    > > alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending
                    > > his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl...
                    > > when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating &
                    > > defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking
                    > > up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert. And as he
                    > > remains thus heedful, ardent, & resolute, any memories & resolves
                    > > related to the household life are abandoned, and with their abandoning
                    > > his mind gathers & settles inwardly, grows unified & centered. This is
                    > > how a monk develops mindfulness immersed in the body.
                    > >
                    > > (sampajāna)
                    > >
                    > > ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu abhikkante paṭikkante sampajānakārī
                    > > hoti, ālokite vilokite sampajānakārī hoti, samiñjite pasārite
                    > > sampajānakārī hoti, saṅghāṭipattacīvaradhāraṇe sampajānakārī hoti, asite
                    > > pīte khāyite sāyite sampajānakārī hoti, uccārapassāvakamme sampajānakārī
                    > > hoti, gate ṭhite nisinne sutte jāgarite bhāsite tuṇhībhāve sampajānakārī
                    > > hoti. Tassa evaṃ appamattassa ātāpino pahitattassa viharato ye gehasitā
                    > > sarasaṅkappā te pahīyanti. Tesaṃ pahānā ajjhattameva cittaṃ santiṭṭhati
                    > > sannisīdati ekodi hoti samādhiyati. Evampi, bhikkhave, bhikkhu
                    > > kāyagatāsatiṃ bhāveti.
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kumara Bhikkhu
                    I know this is an old thread. Just rediscovered it as I was cleaning my mailbox. I wondered about this for a long time, until I found out how the Buddha
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jun 18, 2013
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                      I know this is an old thread. Just rediscovered
                      it as I was cleaning my mailbox.

                      I wondered about this for a long time, until I
                      found out how the Buddha defined sampajana in SN 47:35:

                      And how, monks, is a monk clearly knowing?
                      Here, monks, a monk’s feelings are known when
                      they arise, known when they remain present and known when they go away;
                      [his] thoughts are known when they arise, known
                      when they remain present and known when they go away;
                      [his] perceptions are known when they arise,
                      known when they remain present and known when they go away.
                      It is in such a way, monks, that a monk is clearly knowing.
                      Monks, a mindful monk should dwell clearly
                      knowing. This is our instruction to you.

                      So, it seems that sampajana refers to being aware
                      of the activities of feelings, thoughts, and
                      perceptions, while engaging in any physical activities.

                      frank wrote thus at 01:03 AM 06-02-12:
                      >Dear Pāḷi friends,
                      >
                      >In MN 119, mindfulness immersed in the body sutta, "walking, standing,
                      >sitting, lying down" is covered twice. Once under the section of
                      >postures with "pajānati", and again in the next section of
                      >"sampajānakārī " .

                      <snip>


                      >So how are the differences to be understood, with respect to
                      >"walking/standing/sitting/lying" in "pajānati" versus "sampajānakārī "?
                      >My question on this is primarily motivated by how to fine tune
                      >meditation and satipatthana practice.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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