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Re: [Pali] 2nd jhana simile lake,spring,rain

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  • Yuttadhammo
    Dear Frank, ... that it is in the negative. Both Rhys Davids (Dialogues I, p.85) and Horner (MLS III p.133) agree, though Horner translates and even if the
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 27 4:46 AM
      Dear Frank,

      I think the below passage is clear:

      > devo ca na kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya.

      that it is in the negative. Both Rhys Davids (Dialogues I, p.85) and
      Horner (MLS III p.133) agree, though Horner translates "and even if the
      god does not send down showers..."

      Best wishes,

      Yuttadhammo
    • Yuttadhammo
      Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows: devo vā *naṃ* kālena
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 27 4:51 AM
        Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai
        Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows:

        devo vā *naṃ* kālena kālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya

        which would indeed render a positive sense.

        If you have the Thai tipitaka extension installed, here is the link:

        dpr:index?loc=d.0.0.0.1.0.20.m&alt=1

        Best wishes,

        Yuttadhammo

        On 01/25/2012 11:53 PM, frank wrote:
        > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
        > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
        > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
        > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
        > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
        > in MN 119, it says:
        > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
        >
        > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
        > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
        >
        > So which is it?
        >
        >
        > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
        > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
        >
        > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
        >
        > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
        > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
        > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
        > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
        > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
        >
        > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
        > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
        > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
        > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
        > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
        > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
        > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
        > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
        > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
        > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
        > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
        > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
        > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
        >
        > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
        > in MN 119 :
        > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts& evaluations, he
        > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
        > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
        > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
        > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
        > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
        > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
        > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
        > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
        > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
        > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
        > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
        > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
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        >
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Frank, This is a very interesting variant reading which I have discussed in connection with meditation practice, and which favours the na particle,
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 27 8:24 AM
          Dear Frank,

          This is a very interesting variant reading which I have discussed in
          connection with meditation practice, and which favours the "na" particle,
          which is also the majority reading. You might like to refer to Section 8.2
          of this file:

          http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/8.4-Dhyana-piya.pdf
          .

          With metta,

          Piya


          On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:23 AM, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:

          > **
          >
          >
          > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
          > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
          > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
          > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
          > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
          > in MN 119, it says:
          > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
          >
          > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
          > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
          >
          > So which is it?
          >
          > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
          > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
          >
          > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
          >
          > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
          > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
          > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
          > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
          > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
          >
          > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
          > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
          > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
          > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
          > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
          > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
          > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
          > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
          > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
          > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
          > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
          > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
          > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
          >
          > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
          > in MN 119 :
          > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he
          > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
          > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
          > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
          > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
          > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
          > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
          > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
          > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
          > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
          > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
          > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
          > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
          >
          >
          >



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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • frank
          Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Piya, friends, Thanks for the explanation. I ll know to check against the Thai Tipitaka if I run into discrepancies again. My friend
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 28 7:56 PM
            Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Piya, friends,
            Thanks for the explanation. I'll know to check against the Thai
            Tipitaka if I run into discrepancies again. My friend checked the
            Chinese Agama and it agrees with the Burmese Tipitaka, the negative case
            of NOT raining on the lake.
            Piya, I'll take a look at your paper later this week, it looks
            interesting. Thanks!

            Metta,
            -Frank


            On 1/27/2012 4:51 AM, Yuttadhammo wrote:
            >
            > Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai
            > Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows:
            >
            > devo vā *naṃ* kālena kālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya
            >
            > which would indeed render a positive sense.
            >
            > If you have the Thai tipitaka extension installed, here is the link:
            >
            > dpr:index?loc=d.0.0.0.1.0.20.m&alt=1
            >
            > Best wishes,
            >
            > Yuttadhammo
            >
            > On 01/25/2012 11:53 PM, frank wrote:
            > > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
            > > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
            > > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
            > > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
            > > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
            > > in MN 119, it says:
            > > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
            > >
            > > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
            > > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
            > >
            > > So which is it?
            > >
            > >
            > > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
            > > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
            > <chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&>
            > >
            > > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
            > >
            > > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
            > > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
            > > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
            > > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
            > > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
            > >
            > > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
            > > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
            > > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
            > > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
            > > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
            > > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
            > > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
            > > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
            > > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
            > > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
            > > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
            > > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
            > > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
            > >
            > > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
            > > in MN 119 :
            > > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts& evaluations, he
            > > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
            > > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
            > > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
            > > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
            > > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
            > > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
            > > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
            > > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
            > > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
            > > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
            > > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
            > > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------
            > >
            > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
            > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
            > > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
            > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pali%40yahoogroups.com>
            > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
            > or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



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