Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

2nd jhana simile lake,spring,rain

Expand Messages
  • frank
    I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet), translates the section on the rain in the simile this way: it would have no inlet for
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 25, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
      translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
      "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
      NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
      to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
      in MN 119, it says:
      "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".

      This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
      " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"

      So which is it?


      For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
      chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&

      Dutiyajjhānaṃ

      228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
      ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
      pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
      samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
      nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.

      229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
      [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
      āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
      udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
      kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
      sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
      abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
      sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
      mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
      parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
      samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
      sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
      abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.

      from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
      in MN 119 :
      "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he
      enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
      composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
      evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
      fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
      Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
      inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
      supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
      water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
      suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
      unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
      body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
      of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
    • Yuttadhammo
      Dear Frank, ... that it is in the negative. Both Rhys Davids (Dialogues I, p.85) and Horner (MLS III p.133) agree, though Horner translates and even if the
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 27, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Frank,

        I think the below passage is clear:

        > devo ca na kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya.

        that it is in the negative. Both Rhys Davids (Dialogues I, p.85) and
        Horner (MLS III p.133) agree, though Horner translates "and even if the
        god does not send down showers..."

        Best wishes,

        Yuttadhammo
      • Yuttadhammo
        Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows: devo vā *naṃ* kālena
        Message 3 of 5 , Jan 27, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai
          Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows:

          devo vā *naṃ* kālena kālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya

          which would indeed render a positive sense.

          If you have the Thai tipitaka extension installed, here is the link:

          dpr:index?loc=d.0.0.0.1.0.20.m&alt=1

          Best wishes,

          Yuttadhammo

          On 01/25/2012 11:53 PM, frank wrote:
          > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
          > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
          > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
          > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
          > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
          > in MN 119, it says:
          > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
          >
          > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
          > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
          >
          > So which is it?
          >
          >
          > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
          > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
          >
          > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
          >
          > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
          > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
          > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
          > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
          > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
          >
          > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
          > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
          > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
          > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
          > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
          > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
          > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
          > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
          > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
          > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
          > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
          > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
          > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
          >
          > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
          > in MN 119 :
          > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts& evaluations, he
          > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
          > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
          > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
          > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
          > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
          > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
          > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
          > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
          > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
          > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
          > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
          > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Piya Tan
          Dear Frank, This is a very interesting variant reading which I have discussed in connection with meditation practice, and which favours the na particle,
          Message 4 of 5 , Jan 27, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Frank,

            This is a very interesting variant reading which I have discussed in
            connection with meditation practice, and which favours the "na" particle,
            which is also the majority reading. You might like to refer to Section 8.2
            of this file:

            http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/8.4-Dhyana-piya.pdf
            .

            With metta,

            Piya


            On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:23 AM, frank <fcckuan@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
            > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
            > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
            > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
            > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
            > in MN 119, it says:
            > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
            >
            > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
            > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
            >
            > So which is it?
            >
            > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
            > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
            >
            > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
            >
            > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
            > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
            > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
            > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
            > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
            >
            > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
            > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
            > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
            > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
            > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
            > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
            > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
            > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
            > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
            > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
            > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
            > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
            > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
            >
            > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
            > in MN 119 :
            > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he
            > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
            > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
            > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
            > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
            > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
            > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
            > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
            > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
            > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
            > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
            > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
            > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
            >
            >
            >



            --
            *hp (65) 8211 0879*

            *The Minding Centre*
            170 Upper Bukit Timah Road
            #11-04 Bukit Timah Shopping Centre
            Singapore 588179

            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
            Sutta translation: http://dharmafarer.org


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • frank
            Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Piya, friends, Thanks for the explanation. I ll know to check against the Thai Tipitaka if I run into discrepancies again. My friend
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 28, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Piya, friends,
              Thanks for the explanation. I'll know to check against the Thai
              Tipitaka if I run into discrepancies again. My friend checked the
              Chinese Agama and it agrees with the Burmese Tipitaka, the negative case
              of NOT raining on the lake.
              Piya, I'll take a look at your paper later this week, it looks
              interesting. Thanks!

              Metta,
              -Frank


              On 1/27/2012 4:51 AM, Yuttadhammo wrote:
              >
              > Oh, I see... remember, Thanissaro is working exclusively with the Thai
              > Tipitaka, which reads, according to the DPR, as follows:
              >
              > devo vā *naṃ* kālena kālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya
              >
              > which would indeed render a positive sense.
              >
              > If you have the Thai tipitaka extension installed, here is the link:
              >
              > dpr:index?loc=d.0.0.0.1.0.20.m&alt=1
              >
              > Best wishes,
              >
              > Yuttadhammo
              >
              > On 01/25/2012 11:53 PM, frank wrote:
              > > I noticed that B.Bodhi, in DN 2(1989 published date of BPS booklet),
              > > translates the section on the rain in the simile this way:
              > > "it would have no inlet for water from the east, west, north, or south,
              > > NOR would it be refilled from time to time with showers of rain; "
              > > to double check, I looked at B.Bodhi's middle length discourses, p. 953
              > > in MN 119, it says:
              > > "and would NOT be replenished from time to time by showers of rain".
              > >
              > > This is the opposite of Thanissaro's translation,
              > > " and with the skies supplying abundant showers time and again,"
              > >
              > > So which is it?
              > >
              > >
              > > For reference, I've quoted the pali below, and here's a DPR permalink:
              > > chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&
              > <chrome://digitalpalireader/content/index.xul?loc=DN.2&>
              > >
              > > Dutiyajjhānaṃ
              > >
              > > 228. ‘‘Puna caparaṃ, mahārāja, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā
              > > ajjhattaṃ sampasādanaṃ cetaso ekodibhāvaṃ avitakkaṃ avicāraṃ samādhijaṃ
              > > pītisukhaṃ dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati. So imameva kāyaṃ
              > > samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti parisandeti paripūreti parippharati,
              > > nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti.
              > >
              > > 229. ‘‘Seyyathāpi, mahārāja, udakarahado gambhīro ubbhidodako
              > > [ubbhitodako (syā. kaṃ. ka.)] tassa nevassa puratthimāya disāya udakassa
              > > āyamukhaṃ, na dakkhiṇāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na pacchimāya disāya
              > > udakassa āyamukhaṃ, na uttarāya disāya udakassa āyamukhaṃ, devo ca na
              > > kālenakālaṃ sammādhāraṃ anuppaveccheyya. Atha kho tamhāva udakarahadā
              > > sītā vāridhārā ubbhijjitvā tameva udakarahadaṃ sītena vārinā
              > > abhisandeyya parisandeyya paripūreyya paripphareyya, nāssa kiñci
              > > sabbāvato udakarahadassa sītena vārinā apphuṭaṃ assa. Evameva kho,
              > > mahārāja, bhikkhu imameva kāyaṃ samādhijena pītisukhena abhisandeti
              > > parisandeti paripūreti parippharati, nāssa kiñci sabbāvato kāyassa
              > > samādhijena pītisukhena apphuṭaṃ hoti. Idampi kho, mahārāja,
              > > sandiṭṭhikaṃ sāmaññaphalaṃ purimehi sandiṭṭhikehi sāmaññaphalehi
              > > abhikkantatarañca paṇītatarañca.
              > >
              > > from Thanissaro's translation of DN 2, also the same paragraph appears
              > > in MN 119 :
              > > "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts& evaluations, he
              > > enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of
              > > composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and
              > > evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and
              > > fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure.
              > > Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no
              > > inflow from the east, west, north, or south, and with the skies
              > > supplying abundant showers time and again, so that the cool fount of
              > > water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade,
              > > suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake
              > > unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates... this very
              > > body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing
              > > of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------
              > >
              > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              > > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              > > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:pali%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
              > or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.