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Re: [Pali] Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato

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  • Bryan Levman
    Dear Nina and Mahinda, Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally going home which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
      Dear Nina and Mahinda,

      Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally "going home" which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on: astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die, etc.,

      Hope that helps,

      Metta, Bryan




      ________________________________
      From: Mahinda <mahipal6@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:53:52 PM
      Subject: [Pali] Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato


       

      Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

      I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
      udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
      then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
      Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
      thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
      feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
      is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

      Mahinda

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Bryan,
      >
      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
      > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
      > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
      > > type of compound it would be?
      >
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Nina, I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa . atthagaaminiyaa is as stated an accusative
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
        Dear Nina,

        I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda), meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya")  Hope that is clear. So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to have the meaning of  a single word, the noun,  "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and fall"). It can get a little confusing and hope this is clear,

        Metta, Bryan






        ________________________________




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      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Bryan and Mahinda, ... N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say: modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
          Dear Bryan and Mahinda,
          Op 19-sep-2011, om 13:34 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

          > I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in the
          > phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an
          > accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall
          > compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda),
          > meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya") Hope that
          > is clear.
          ------
          N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say:
          modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
          Attha gaaminiyaa: a tappurisa: (Warder: prior member is associated
          with the posterior by a direct relation, like: madhouse: house for
          the mad).
          You say an accusative in attha:atthagaamin, going home" which is a
          metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed
          out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on:
          astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes
          to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die,
          etc.,
          N: Interesting, I never thought of that.
          ----
          > B: So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya
          > samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive
          > case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying
          > wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the
          > two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to
          > have the meaning of a single word, the noun,
          > "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-
          > gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and
          > fall").
          ------
          Thanks very much for this interesting explanation,

          Nina.



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