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Re: [Pali] re: du.t.thulla.m - explained!

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  • Kumaara Bhikkhu
    ... I think that was an excellent answer. Would the Prof. be interested to join this group? As for Ven. Bodhi, I don t think so. Some months ago, I came to
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 3, 2003
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      At 05:05 AM 03-01-03, you wrote:
      >First, from Prof. Andrew Olendzki, noted Pali scholar
      >and Director of the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies
      >in Barre, Massachussetts, USA, who is also a personal
      >friend:

      I think that was an excellent answer. Would the Prof. be interested to join this group?

      As for Ven. Bodhi, I don't think so. Some months ago, I came to know that he had long suffered a headache so serious that he can only bear to read for a short period of time. That's why he left BPS. Hope he's better now.

      I've been thinking of this in terms of experience. Ever become so engrossed in a very exciting thing that you spend a long time with it, like chatting in IRC, or playing a computer game. I have--when I was a lay man, or course. Then at the end, you feel this lethargy? It think that's a gross form of "kaayadu.t.thulla". What do you all think?


      peace

      Kumâra Bhikkhu
    • nina van gorkom
      Hi John, Very interesting, helpful suggestions about the way to translate. Could I have the link to Andi s Pali page once more, it did not come out so clear.
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 3, 2003
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        Hi John,
        Very interesting, helpful suggestions about the way to translate. Could I
        have the link to Andi's Pali page once more, it did not come out so clear.
        Now see below.

        Nina: my remarks. I am glad Yang Peng shares my admiration for Buddhaghosa.
        I find that translators of commentaries have much merit, but I regret it
        that they do not put dots where they leave out passages. I shall give an
        example where I find that it makes a great difference to have the original
        text. We read on dsg list The Way of Mindfulness, commentary to the
        Satipa.t.thaana sutta by Ven. Soma. Again , he made a good translation, I
        appreciate all his efforts, but left out a passage which is to me essential:
        After the end of the summary, the sutta starts with the section on
        breathing, and after the section on the verse about the taming of the
        wild,young calf, Ven Soma goes on: gone to the forest. He translates:

        <Because the subject of meditation of mindfulness on in-and-out-breathing
        is not easy to accomplish without leaving the neighbourhood of a
        village, owing to sound, which is a thorn to absorption; and because in
        a place not become a township it is easy for the meditator to lay hold
        of this subject of meditation, the
        Blessed One, pointing out the abode suitable for that, spoke the words,
        "Gone to the forest," and so forth. >

        Right before the beginning of these phrases, <Because the subject...>
        Ven. Soma left out a passage which I believe is essential for understanding
        this subject, namely, for whom it is suitable and also what is the goal of
        anapanasati: developing insight and calm to the degree of jhana, using jhana
        as foundation for vipassana and attaining fruition of the arahat.
        Here is my translation of the left out passage (I am so glad if I get
        corrected, learning from corrections):

        apica, yasmaa ida.m kaayaanupassanaaya muddhabhuuta.m
        sabbabuddhapaccekabuddhabuddhasaavakaana.m
        visesaadhigama-di.t.thadhammasukhavihaarapada.t.thaana.m
        aanaapaanassatikamma.t.thaana.m

        N: And thus also, with regard to the meditation subject of anapanasati which
        has become the topmost of Body Contemplation, being the proximate cause for
        abiding in ease here, now (di.t.thadhammasukhavihaara, fruition attainment)
        for all Buddhas, Silent Buddhas and disciples of the Buddha,

        itthipurisahatthiassaadisaddasamaakula.m gaamanta.m apariccajitvaa na
        sukara.m sampaadetu.m, saddaka.n.takattaa jhaanassa.

        N: this is not easy to undertake when one has not abandoned the border of
        the village, full of sounds of women, men, elephants, horses etc.

        agaamake pana ara~n~ne sukara.m yogaavacarena ida.m kamma.t.thaana.m
        pariggahetvaa aanaapaanacatutthajjhaana.m nibbattetvaa tadeva jhaana.m
        paadaka.m katvaa sa"nkhaare sammasitvaa aggaphala.m arahatta.m paapu.nitu.m.
        N: If the meditator does not live in a village but in the forest, it is easy
        for him, after he has mastered this meditation subject, attained the fourth
        jhana of anapana sati, and made this jhana the foundation and has thoroughly
        comprehended conditioned dhammas (sankhare),
        to fulfill the highets frutuion, the fruition of arahatship;

        tasmaassa anuruupasenaasana.m dassento bhagavaa ``ara~n~nagato
        vaa''tiaadimaaha.

        N: Therefore the Blessed One, pointing out the dwelling suitable for that,
        said, gone to the forets etc. (As is)

        Here is also a passage translated in the Vis. VIII, 155, some time ago
        discussed by Rob K and Robert Edison:
        <Or alternatively, this mindfulness of breathing as a meditation subject-
        which is foremost among the various meditation subjects of all Buddhas,
        [some] Paccekaa Buddhas and [some] Buddhas¹ disciples as a basis for
        attaining distinction and abiding in bliss here and now- is not easy to
        develop without leaving the neighbourhood of villages... , whereas in the
        forest away from a village a meditator can at his ease set about discerning
        this meditation subject and achieve the fourth jhana in mindfulness of
        breathing; and then, by making that same jhana the basis for comprehension
        of formations [with insight] (Ch XX, §2f.) , he can reach Arahantship, the
        highest fruit...>
        This is almost the same as my translation (I saw the Vis tr later on).

        Some time ago I made a study of the Co to the Anapana Sati sutta. I quote :
        We read in the Co. to the Anapana Sati Sutta:
        <But here the mindfulness which lays hold of breathing in and out is mundane
        (lokiya); mundane breathing in and out perfects the mundane foundations of
        mindfulness; the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect the supramundane
        (lokuttara) enlightenment factors; the supramundane enlightenment factors
        perfect nibbana as the fruit of clear vision and deliverance>
        The Co states that it is thus elsewhere (in other texts), but that in this
        sutta it is handed down that the mundane foundations of mindfulness perfect
        the mundane enlightenment factors, and that these perfect clear vision
        (vijjå), deliverance (vimutti), fruition (phala) and nibbana, which are
        lokuttara. Because in this sutta ³clear vision and deliverance² designate
        clear vision, fruition (phala) and nibbana.
        N : If jhana is not reached, and there are not the masteries (vasis) in
        jhana, such as attaining and emerging at any time, at any place, samatha,
        the development of calm, cannot be a foundation for vipassana.
        To me personally the passage above I translated puts the section on
        breathing in a different perspective. It is also in conformity with the co
        to the Anapana sati sutta. With this example I want to show the importance
        to read the Pali commentaries themselves, and I am greatly motivated to
        continue reading the Pali texts themselves.
        Nina.

        op 02-01-2003 22:05 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:

        > First, from Prof. Andrew Olendzki, noted Pali scholar
        > and Director of the Barre Center for Buddhist Studies
        > in Barre, Massachussetts, USA, who is also a personal
        > friend:
        >
        > Three points to remember: 1) context has a lot to
        > do with how best to translate a technical term; and 2)
        > there are alternate and related spellings of many Pali
        > words to consult; and 3) whenever you come across a
        > prefix always look up the word it is attached to.
        (snip) the comy to MN 127) consistently gloss this
        > compound as meaning
        > "kaayaalasiyabhaava", which might be translated
        > "lassitude of body." It was Ven. Nyanamoli who chose
        > "inertia" as the rendering, and given the comy gloss,
        > I saw no reason to change this."
        >
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