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Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato

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  • Mahinda
    Dear Nina, Bryan and others, I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning disapearance . So udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
      Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

      I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
      udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
      then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
      Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
      thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
      feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
      is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

      Mahinda


      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Bryan,
      >
      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
      > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
      > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
      > > type of compound it would be?
      >
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Mahinda, Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong together, because attha alone does not make much sense here. Just wondering what
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
        Dear Mahinda,
        Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
        together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
        Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
        subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
        subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
        Nina.
        Op 19-sep-2011, om 4:53 heeft Mahinda het volgende geschreven:
        >
        >
        > I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
        > udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
        > then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
        > Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
        > thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say
        > any
        > feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or
        > pleasure. It
        > is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Mahinda
        ... Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it. Most times if
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Mahinda,
          > Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
          > together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
          > Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
          > subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
          > subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
          > Nina.

          Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think
          most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it.
          Most times if the meaning of a compound appears clear, one needn't worry
          about classification.

          In this particular expression of course, how to get the meaning is not
          so evident. It seems to be : endowed (samannaagato) with insight
          (pa~n~naaya) leading to [the understanding of] "rise and demise".
          Assuming a middle term ("understanding" in this case) is sometimes
          necessary when dealing with compounds.

          If my understanding is right (I am open to correction), there is a
          complex of 2 compounds here. First a copulative "udayattha" (rise AND
          fall); then an accusative tappurisa (udayatth.m gaaminii). The
          accusative sign (.m) is lost in compounding.

          Mahinda
        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Nina and Mahinda, Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally going home which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
            Dear Nina and Mahinda,

            Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally "going home" which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on: astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die, etc.,

            Hope that helps,

            Metta, Bryan




            ________________________________
            From: Mahinda <mahipal6@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:53:52 PM
            Subject: [Pali] Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato


             

            Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

            I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
            udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
            then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
            Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
            thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
            feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
            is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

            Mahinda

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Bryan,
            >
            > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
            > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
            > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
            > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
            > > type of compound it would be?
            >
            > Nina.
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bryan Levman
            Dear Nina, I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa . atthagaaminiyaa is as stated an accusative
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
              Dear Nina,

              I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda), meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya")  Hope that is clear. So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to have the meaning of  a single word, the noun,  "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and fall"). It can get a little confusing and hope this is clear,

              Metta, Bryan






              ________________________________




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Bryan and Mahinda, ... N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say: modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
                Dear Bryan and Mahinda,
                Op 19-sep-2011, om 13:34 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                > I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in the
                > phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an
                > accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall
                > compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda),
                > meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya") Hope that
                > is clear.
                ------
                N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say:
                modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
                Attha gaaminiyaa: a tappurisa: (Warder: prior member is associated
                with the posterior by a direct relation, like: madhouse: house for
                the mad).
                You say an accusative in attha:atthagaamin, going home" which is a
                metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed
                out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on:
                astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes
                to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die,
                etc.,
                N: Interesting, I never thought of that.
                ----
                > B: So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya
                > samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive
                > case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying
                > wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the
                > two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to
                > have the meaning of a single word, the noun,
                > "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-
                > gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and
                > fall").
                ------
                Thanks very much for this interesting explanation,

                Nina.



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