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Re: [Pali] udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya sam annaagato

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  • Larry Rosenfeld
    The phrase can also be found, for instance, in MN 53. In Ven. ~Naa.namoli & Ven. Bodhi s translation of the Majjhima Nikaaya (1995/2001, p. 463, para. 17),
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 13, 2011
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      The phrase can also be found, for instance, in MN 53. In Ven.
      ~Naa.namoli & Ven. Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaaya
      (1995/2001, p. 463, para. 17), the phrase and the related words are
      translated as: "... he possesses wisdom regarding rise and
      disappearance that is noble and penetrative [... ariyaaya
      nibbedhikaaya]...." According to the associated end note (#561, p.
      1255), the Majjhima Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa (MA) provides this analysis:

      "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
      the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
      'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
      the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
      penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
      leads to penetration by the path."

      Hope this helps. With metta,
      Larry

      On 9/12/2011 6:49 AM, behappydfgt wrote:
      >
      > Respected members of the group.
      >
      > I would like to know more about the meaning of this expression:
      >
      > udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato
      >
      > It appears at AN 8:54 on paññasampaada, I have seen it somwhere else
      > but now I cannot recollect properly.
      >
      > It refers tothe udayabbayañaan·na, or it refers to a reflective
      > understanding of impermanence in the world of concepts.
      >
      > What the commentators said?
      >
      > Thank you very much for your time and attention,
      >
      > with metta,
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Larry, ... N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different from
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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        Dear Larry,
        Op 13-sep-2011, om 15:15 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

        > "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
        > the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
        > 'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
        > the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
        > penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
        > leads to penetration by the path."
        -------
        N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First
        the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different
        from ruupa, knowing their characteristics as they appear one at a
        time more and more clearly, before their arising and falling away can
        be penetrated.
        ------
        Nina.



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      • Larry Rosenfeld
        Nina - thank you for sharing the fruits of your insights and knowledge. Definitely helpful. - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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          Nina - thank you for sharing the fruits of your insights and knowledge.
          Definitely helpful. - Larry

          On 9/14/2011 9:06 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          > Op 13-sep-2011, om 15:15 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
          >
          > > "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
          > > the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
          > > 'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
          > > the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
          > > penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
          > > leads to penetration by the path."
          > -------
          > N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First
          > the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different
          > from ruupa, knowing their characteristics as they appear one at a
          > time more and more clearly, before their arising and falling away can
          > be penetrated.
          > ------
          > Nina.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • behappydfgt
          Thank you very much for all the answers, at the moment they are being very insightfull
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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            Thank you very much for all the answers, at the moment they are being very insightfull
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Bryan, ... Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 16, 2011
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              Dear Bryan,

              > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
              > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
              > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
              > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
              > type of compound it would be?

              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Mahinda
              Dear Nina, Bryan and others, I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning disapearance . So udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
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                Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

                I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
                feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
                is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

                Mahinda


                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Bryan,
                >
                > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
                > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
                > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
                > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
                > > type of compound it would be?
                >
                > Nina.
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Mahinda, Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong together, because attha alone does not make much sense here. Just wondering what
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
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                  Dear Mahinda,
                  Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
                  together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
                  Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
                  subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
                  subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
                  Nina.
                  Op 19-sep-2011, om 4:53 heeft Mahinda het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  >
                  > I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                  > udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                  > then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                  > Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                  > thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say
                  > any
                  > feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or
                  > pleasure. It
                  > is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mahinda
                  ... Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it. Most times if
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Mahinda,
                    > Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
                    > together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
                    > Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
                    > subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
                    > subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
                    > Nina.

                    Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think
                    most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it.
                    Most times if the meaning of a compound appears clear, one needn't worry
                    about classification.

                    In this particular expression of course, how to get the meaning is not
                    so evident. It seems to be : endowed (samannaagato) with insight
                    (pa~n~naaya) leading to [the understanding of] "rise and demise".
                    Assuming a middle term ("understanding" in this case) is sometimes
                    necessary when dealing with compounds.

                    If my understanding is right (I am open to correction), there is a
                    complex of 2 compounds here. First a copulative "udayattha" (rise AND
                    fall); then an accusative tappurisa (udayatth.m gaaminii). The
                    accusative sign (.m) is lost in compounding.

                    Mahinda
                  • Bryan Levman
                    Dear Nina and Mahinda, Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally going home which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                      Dear Nina and Mahinda,

                      Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally "going home" which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on: astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die, etc.,

                      Hope that helps,

                      Metta, Bryan




                      ________________________________
                      From: Mahinda <mahipal6@...>
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:53:52 PM
                      Subject: [Pali] Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato


                       

                      Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

                      I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                      udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                      then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                      Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                      thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
                      feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
                      is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

                      Mahinda

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Bryan,
                      >
                      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
                      > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
                      > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
                      > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
                      > > type of compound it would be?
                      >
                      > Nina.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bryan Levman
                      Dear Nina, I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa . atthagaaminiyaa is as stated an accusative
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                        Dear Nina,

                        I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda), meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya")  Hope that is clear. So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to have the meaning of  a single word, the noun,  "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and fall"). It can get a little confusing and hope this is clear,

                        Metta, Bryan






                        ________________________________




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Bryan and Mahinda, ... N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say: modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                          Dear Bryan and Mahinda,
                          Op 19-sep-2011, om 13:34 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                          > I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in the
                          > phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an
                          > accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall
                          > compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda),
                          > meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya") Hope that
                          > is clear.
                          ------
                          N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say:
                          modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
                          Attha gaaminiyaa: a tappurisa: (Warder: prior member is associated
                          with the posterior by a direct relation, like: madhouse: house for
                          the mad).
                          You say an accusative in attha:atthagaamin, going home" which is a
                          metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed
                          out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on:
                          astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes
                          to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die,
                          etc.,
                          N: Interesting, I never thought of that.
                          ----
                          > B: So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya
                          > samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive
                          > case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying
                          > wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the
                          > two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to
                          > have the meaning of a single word, the noun,
                          > "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-
                          > gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and
                          > fall").
                          ------
                          Thanks very much for this interesting explanation,

                          Nina.



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