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udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato

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  • behappydfgt
    Respected members of the group. I would like to know more about the meaning of this expression: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato It appears at AN
    Message 1 of 15 , Sep 12, 2011
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      Respected members of the group.

      I would like to know more about the meaning of this expression:

      udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato

      It appears at AN 8:54 on paññasampaada, I have seen it somwhere else but now I cannot recollect properly.

      It refers tothe udayabbayañaan·na, or it refers to a reflective understanding of impermanence in the world of concepts.

      What the commentators said?

      Thank you very much for your time and attention,

      with metta,
    • Larry Rosenfeld
      The phrase can also be found, for instance, in MN 53. In Ven. ~Naa.namoli & Ven. Bodhi s translation of the Majjhima Nikaaya (1995/2001, p. 463, para. 17),
      Message 2 of 15 , Sep 13, 2011
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        The phrase can also be found, for instance, in MN 53. In Ven.
        ~Naa.namoli & Ven. Bodhi's translation of the Majjhima Nikaaya
        (1995/2001, p. 463, para. 17), the phrase and the related words are
        translated as: "... he possesses wisdom regarding rise and
        disappearance that is noble and penetrative [... ariyaaya
        nibbedhikaaya]...." According to the associated end note (#561, p.
        1255), the Majjhima Nikaaya A.t.thakathaa (MA) provides this analysis:

        "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
        the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
        'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
        the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
        penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
        leads to penetration by the path."

        Hope this helps. With metta,
        Larry

        On 9/12/2011 6:49 AM, behappydfgt wrote:
        >
        > Respected members of the group.
        >
        > I would like to know more about the meaning of this expression:
        >
        > udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato
        >
        > It appears at AN 8:54 on paññasampaada, I have seen it somwhere else
        > but now I cannot recollect properly.
        >
        > It refers tothe udayabbayañaan·na, or it refers to a reflective
        > understanding of impermanence in the world of concepts.
        >
        > What the commentators said?
        >
        > Thank you very much for your time and attention,
        >
        > with metta,
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear behappydfgt, ... N: The stage of insight realizing the arising and falling away of dhammas is the first stage of Principal insight, Mahaa-vipassanaa
        Message 3 of 15 , Sep 13, 2011
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          Dear behappydfgt,
          Op 12-sep-2011, om 12:49 heeft behappydfgt het volgende geschreven:

          > udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato
          >
          > It appears at AN 8:54 on paññasampaada, I have seen it somwhere
          > else but now I cannot recollect properly.
          >
          > It refers to the udayabbayañaan·na, or it refers to a reflective
          > understanding of impermanence in the world of concepts.
          >
          > What the commentators said?
          -----
          N: The stage of insight realizing the arising and falling away of
          dhammas is the first stage of Principal insight, Mahaa-vipassanaa
          ~naa.na. It realizes the arising and falling away of whatever reality
          appears at the present moment. It is not mere thinking, and it is not
          thinking in general of the impermanence of people and things in the
          world. Insight is direct realisation, not thinking.
          Gaamin: leading to. Endowed with pa~n~naa leading to rise and fall
          (udayattha, as given in PED).
          -----
          Nina.



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        • Bryan Levman
          Thanks Nina for the explanation The commentary to the Vitthatasutta (AN 3.002) says: udayatthagaaminiyaa ti pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m udayavayagaaminiyaa
          Message 4 of 15 , Sep 13, 2011
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            Thanks Nina for the explanation


            The commentary to the Vitthatasutta (AN 3.002) says:

            udayatthagaaminiyaa ti pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m udayavayagaaminiyaa udaya~nca vaya~nca pa.tivijjhitu.m samatthaaya. pa~n~naayaP samannaagato ti vipassanaapa~n~naaya ceva maggapa~n~naaya ca sama"ngibhuuto.
            "endowed with wisdom" means the state of being endowed with the wisdom of the path and the wisdom  of insight. "Leading to rise and fall" means - which (wisdom) is able to discern both rising and falling leading to the (discernment) of rising and falling of the five aggregates.

            Metta, Bryan



            ________________________________
            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 10:21:56 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato


             
            Dear behappydfgt,
            Op 12-sep-2011, om 12:49 heeft behappydfgt het volgende geschreven:

            > udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato
            >
            > It appears at AN 8:54 on paññasampaada, I have seen it somwhere
            > else but now I cannot recollect properly.
            >
            > It refers to the udayabbayañaan·na, or it refers to a reflective
            > understanding of impermanence in the world of concepts.
            >
            > What the commentators said?
            -----
            N: The stage of insight realizing the arising and falling away of
            dhammas is the first stage of Principal insight, Mahaa-vipassanaa
            ~naa.na. It realizes the arising and falling away of whatever reality
            appears at the present moment. It is not mere thinking, and it is not
            thinking in general of the impermanence of people and things in the
            world. Insight is direct realisation, not thinking.
            Gaamin: leading to. Endowed with pa~n~naa leading to rise and fall
            (udayattha, as given in PED).
            -----
            Nina.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Bryan, Thank you for giving the commentary text with the Pali, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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              Dear Bryan,
              Thank you for giving the commentary text with the Pali,
              Nina.
              Op 14-sep-2011, om 2:43 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

              > The commentary to the Vitthatasutta (AN 3.002) says:
              >
              > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti pa~ncanna.m khandhaana.m udayavayagaaminiyaa
              > udaya~nca vaya~nca pa.tivijjhitu.m samatthaaya. pa~n~naayaP
              > samannaagato ti vipassanaapa~n~naaya ceva maggapa~n~naaya ca
              > sama"ngibhuuto.
              > "endowed with wisdom" means the state of being endowed with the
              > wisdom of the path and the wisdom of insight. "Leading to rise and
              > fall" means - which (wisdom) is able to discern both rising and
              > falling leading to the (discernment) of rising and falling of the
              > five aggregates.



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            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Larry, ... N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different from
              Message 6 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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                Dear Larry,
                Op 13-sep-2011, om 15:15 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                > "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
                > the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
                > 'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
                > the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
                > penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
                > leads to penetration by the path."
                -------
                N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First
                the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different
                from ruupa, knowing their characteristics as they appear one at a
                time more and more clearly, before their arising and falling away can
                be penetrated.
                ------
                Nina.



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              • Larry Rosenfeld
                Nina - thank you for sharing the fruits of your insights and knowledge. Definitely helpful. - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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                  Nina - thank you for sharing the fruits of your insights and knowledge.
                  Definitely helpful. - Larry

                  On 9/14/2011 9:06 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Larry,
                  > Op 13-sep-2011, om 15:15 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  > > "This is the wisdom of insight and of the path, capable of penetrating
                  > > the rise and fall of the five aggregates. Path wisdom is called
                  > > 'penetrative' (nibbedhikaa) because it pierces through and eradicates
                  > > the mass of greed, hate, and delusion; insight wisdom is called
                  > > penetrative because it pierces though them temporarily and because it
                  > > leads to penetration by the path."
                  > -------
                  > N: Very good, enjoyed reading it. It takes a long way, though. First
                  > the visesa lakkha.na have to be clearly known, naama being different
                  > from ruupa, knowing their characteristics as they appear one at a
                  > time more and more clearly, before their arising and falling away can
                  > be penetrated.
                  > ------
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • behappydfgt
                  Thank you very much for all the answers, at the moment they are being very insightfull
                  Message 8 of 15 , Sep 14, 2011
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                    Thank you very much for all the answers, at the moment they are being very insightfull
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Bryan, ... Nina. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 16, 2011
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                      Dear Bryan,

                      > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
                      > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
                      > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
                      > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
                      > type of compound it would be?

                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Mahinda
                      Dear Nina, Bryan and others, I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning disapearance . So udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii
                      Message 10 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
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                        Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

                        I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                        udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                        then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                        Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                        thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
                        feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
                        is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

                        Mahinda


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Bryan,
                        >
                        > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
                        > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
                        > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
                        > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
                        > > type of compound it would be?
                        >
                        > Nina.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Mahinda, Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong together, because attha alone does not make much sense here. Just wondering what
                        Message 11 of 15 , Sep 18, 2011
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                          Dear Mahinda,
                          Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
                          together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
                          Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
                          subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
                          subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
                          Nina.
                          Op 19-sep-2011, om 4:53 heeft Mahinda het volgende geschreven:
                          >
                          >
                          > I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                          > udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                          > then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                          > Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                          > thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say
                          > any
                          > feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or
                          > pleasure. It
                          > is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mahinda
                          ... Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it. Most times if
                          Message 12 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Mahinda,
                            > Thank you very much. Yes, as to attha.mgama, this must belong
                            > together, because attha alone does not make much sense here.
                            > Just wondering what type of compound it is. Recently I went over the
                            > subject of compound and I get quite lost, especially about all the
                            > subclasses of each compound. I checked Warder and some old posts.
                            > Nina.

                            Yes, one can easily get lost in this branch of Pali grammar; but I think
                            most people get misled by the emphasis that grammar books put on it.
                            Most times if the meaning of a compound appears clear, one needn't worry
                            about classification.

                            In this particular expression of course, how to get the meaning is not
                            so evident. It seems to be : endowed (samannaagato) with insight
                            (pa~n~naaya) leading to [the understanding of] "rise and demise".
                            Assuming a middle term ("understanding" in this case) is sometimes
                            necessary when dealing with compounds.

                            If my understanding is right (I am open to correction), there is a
                            complex of 2 compounds here. First a copulative "udayattha" (rise AND
                            fall); then an accusative tappurisa (udayatth.m gaaminii). The
                            accusative sign (.m) is lost in compounding.

                            Mahinda
                          • Bryan Levman
                            Dear Nina and Mahinda, Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally going home which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                              Dear Nina and Mahinda,

                              Yes it is an accusative tatpuru.sa compound, meaning literally "going home" which is a metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on: astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die, etc.,

                              Hope that helps,

                              Metta, Bryan




                              ________________________________
                              From: Mahinda <mahipal6@...>
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2011 10:53:52 PM
                              Subject: [Pali] Re: udayatthagaaminiyaa paññaaya samannaagato


                               

                              Dear Nina, Bryan and others,

                              I think -attha here stands for attha.mgama, meaning "disapearance". So
                              udayattha would be rise and demise. Udayattha-gaaminii pa~n~naa would
                              then be "insight of rise and fall" (of physical and mental states). As
                              Nina rightly pointed out earlier, this is different from structured
                              thought or thinking. It is direct, of-the-moment perception, of say any
                              feeling or volitional state; or even of a physical pain or pleasure. It
                              is a neat explanation of vipassanaa.

                              Mahinda

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Bryan,
                              >
                              > > udayatthagaaminiyaa ti : I am still wondering about the grammar of
                              > > udayatthagaaminiyaa. At first I thought that gaaminiyaa refers to
                              > > pa~n~naa, leading to.. But, as to attha, in PED atthagaamin is
                              > > mentioned, as if gaamini belongs to attha. What do you think? What
                              > > type of compound it would be?
                              >
                              > Nina.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Bryan Levman
                              Dear Nina, I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa . atthagaaminiyaa is as stated an accusative
                              Message 14 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                Dear Nina,

                                I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in  the phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda), meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya")  Hope that is clear. So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to have the meaning of  a single word, the noun,  "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and fall"). It can get a little confusing and hope this is clear,

                                Metta, Bryan






                                ________________________________




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                              • Nina van Gorkom
                                Dear Bryan and Mahinda, ... N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say: modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
                                Message 15 of 15 , Sep 19, 2011
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                                  Dear Bryan and Mahinda,
                                  Op 19-sep-2011, om 13:34 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                                  > I forgot to mention that there are in fact two compounds in the
                                  > phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa". "atthagaaminiyaa" is as stated an
                                  > accusative tatpuru.sa (P. tappurisa) compound, but the overall
                                  > compound ("udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa) is a dvandva (P. dvanda),
                                  > meaning "rise and fall", modifying wisdom ("pa~n~naaya") Hope that
                                  > is clear.
                                  ------
                                  N: The whole compound can be considered as a dvanda and as you say:
                                  modifying wisdom. (Warder: twin compound or collective noun).
                                  Attha gaaminiyaa: a tappurisa: (Warder: prior member is associated
                                  with the posterior by a direct relation, like: madhouse: house for
                                  the mad).
                                  You say an accusative in attha:atthagaamin, going home" which is a
                                  metaphor for dying, which means by extension, as Mahinda has pointed
                                  out "disappearance". It is very common in Skt. from Vedic times on:
                                  astam eti or astam gacchati (Paali attham...), meaning "he/she goes
                                  to his/her (heavenly) home" and has come to mean vanish, perish, die,
                                  etc.,
                                  N: Interesting, I never thought of that.
                                  ----
                                  > B: So in the original phrase "udaya-attha-gaaminiyaa pa~n~naaya
                                  > samannaagato", the whole compound would probably be in genitive
                                  > case ("endowed with wisdom of the rise and fall...") modifying
                                  > wisdom; the word attha is the object of gaaminiyaa and together the
                                  > two form a tappurisa accus. compound which has together come to
                                  > have the meaning of a single word, the noun,
                                  > "disappearance" (lit: "going home"); and the words udaya and attha-
                                  > gaaminiyaa are a dvanda, i. e. two nouns joined by "and" ("rise and
                                  > fall").
                                  ------
                                  Thanks very much for this interesting explanation,

                                  Nina.



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