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Re: [Pali] The New Pali Course Part III [49/120] gerund and gerundive.

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  • Bryan Levman
    Hi Yong Peng and Nina, I ve been away in India for the last month and away from email. A future passive participle and a gerundive (also called a gerundivium
    Message 1 of 102 , Jul 5, 2011
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      Hi Yong Peng and Nina,

      I've been away in India for the last month and away from email.

      A future passive participle and a
      gerundive (also called a gerundivium which is its Latin name) are the same thing - a "future passive participle" (another name for a gerundivium) which is a verbal adjective, with the meaning "to be [past
      participle]" or "should be [past participle]", or "ought to be [past participle]."

      In this case vandiyaa is a gerundive meaning "to be praised" ("ought to be praised" or "should be praised") modifying the Buddhaas; the Sanskrit equivalent is vandya ("to be praised"), so vandiyaa, with the extra epenthetic -i- must be an eastern form (which is
      very common in Paali, e.g. ariya for ayya from Skt. arya.)

      vanditabba is derived from Skt. vanditavya which also means to be praised and is also a future passive participle, gerundive, a verbal adjective modifying Tathaagataas.. In Skt. there are three principle endings which create a gerundive: -ya, -tavya and  -aniiya,, all added to the root in its gu.na grade. Paali also has more than one form as is apparent.

      All gerundives are passive. Gerunds are usually active (but can also be passive), but are always indeclinable. Since these gerundive forms (vandiyaa and vanditabbaa) are both in agreement with a noun (in nom. pl.) then one knows right away that they must be gerundives (verbal adjectives), not gerunds.  The gerund form from the verb vandati is vanditvaa and it usu. means "having praised" and would generally take an object in the accusative.

      Hope this helps,

      Metta, Bryan



      --- On Tue, 7/5/11,
      Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
      Subject: Re: [Pali] The New Pali Course Part III [49/120] gerund and gerundive.
      To:
      Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Tuesday, July 5, 2011, 12:42 PM
















       









      Dear Yong Peng,

      A useful question.

      Op 3-jul-2011, om 17:12 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:



      > YP: vandiya (PTS: gerundive of vandati) to be honoured.

      > YP: vanditabba (future passive participle of vandati) should be

      > honoured.

      > YP: This is the first time I encounter a "gerundive" and a "future

      > passive participle" of the same verb so close together. In Latin, a

      > gerund is a verbal noun, while a gerundive is a verbal adjective.

      > Can anyone explain if the same can be said of Pali.

      --------

      N: I looked up Warder lesson 8: a gerund (pubbakiriya) is an

      indeclinable participle, expressing a action preceding the action of

      the main verb. Agent of gerund is the same as agent of main action.

      endings on -tvaa, itvaa, or ya.

      We have met forms like: upasa.mkamitvaa, having approached... And

      aadaaya, having taken.

      Duroiselle, at end deals with Gerund, but not with gerundive.

      But now we have here a gerundive, or in Latin: gerundivum, a form

      with: must, or, to be: vandiya.

      As you say, this is a verbal noun.

      The difference between gerundive and gerund in Latin: I asked an

      expert in the family and tell you as soon as he answers.

      -------

      Nina.



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    • Bryan Levman
      Thanks Nina for the explanation. You certainly know more about this material (Abhidhamma) than I do, Metta, Bryan ... From: Nina van Gorkom
      Message 102 of 102 , Jul 26, 2011
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        Thanks Nina for the explanation. You certainly know more about this material (Abhidhamma) than I do,

        Metta, Bryan



        --- On Tue, 7/26/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        Subject: Re: [Pali] The New Pali Course Part III [50/120]
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 1:47 PM
















         









        Dear Bryan,

        Op 26-jul-2011, om 14:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:



        > I am not so sure about maggaphala as a dvandva. The PED seems to

        > suggest that the compound is identical with sotaapattiphala, i. .e

        > the fruit of entering upon the path, which would make it a gen.

        > tatpurusa.

        ------

        N: There are the expressions: sotaapatti magga and sotaapatti phala.

        I think that these refer to the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta)

        of the sotaapanna and the phalacitta (lokuttara vipaakacitta

        immediately following) of the sotaapanna. Thus, sotapattiphala: who

        has realized the fruition-consciousness of the stage of the sotaapanna.

        I have come across the expression of someone who should realize

        maggaphala. I take this as: realize maggacitta and phalacitta.



        -------

        Nina.



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