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Re: [Pali] AN2.4 Samacitta Vagga (10)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much. ... N: Just for the English: standing. PTS: So standing... ... N: Fetters, the plural. Or, PTS: who is fetterd inwardly...
    Message 1 of 46 , Jun 27, 2011
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      Dear Yong Peng,
      thank you very much.
      Op 27-jun-2011, om 5:30 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven:
      >
      >
      > Ekamanta.m .thitaa kho taa devataa bhagavanta.m etadavocu.m -
      > on one side / stood / indeed / those / divine beings / to Blessed
      > One / this-said
      > Stood on one side indeed, those divine beings said this to the
      > Blessed One -
      >
      > .thita (pp of ti.t.thati) stood.
      >
      -------
      N: Just for the English: standing. PTS: So standing...
      -------
      >
      >
      > "eso, bhante, aayasmaa saariputto pubbaaraame migaaramaatupaasaade
      > bhikkhuuna.m ajjhattasa.myojana~nca puggala.m deseti
      > bahiddhaasa.myojana~nca.
      > this / venerable sir / venerable / Sariputta / at East Park / at
      > mansion of Migara's mother / to monks / inner fetter-and / person /
      > teaches / outer fetter-and
      > "Sir, this venerable Sariputta teaches (about) a person (of) inner
      > fetter and (a person of) outer fetter to the monks at East Park, at
      > the mansion of Migara's mother.
      >
      ---------
      N: Fetters, the plural. Or, PTS: who is fetterd inwardly... (There is
      always more than one fetter)
      >
      > Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yenaayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu
      > anukampa.m upaadaayaa"ti.
      > good / venerable sir / Blessed One / where-venerable / Sariputta /
      > there-let...approach / out of compassion
      > Sir, may the kind Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there
      > [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying)."
      >
      ----------
      > N: saadhu: it were a good thing if...
      >
      -------
      >
      > Adhivaasesi bhagavaa tu.nhiibhaavena.
      > consented / Blessed One / in silence
      > The Blessed One consented in silence.
      >
      ------
      N: By his silence.
      -------
      >
      >
      > adhivaaseti (v) consents, agrees.
      > tu.nhiibhaava (indec) in silence.
      >
      >
      > jetavane antarahito pubbaaraame migaaramaatupaasaade aayasmato
      > saariputtassa sammukhe paaturahosi.
      >
      > disappeared within Jeta Grove, (he) appeared in front of venerable
      > Sariputta at East Park, at the mansion of Migara's mother.
      >
      -------
      N: disappeared from the Jeta Grove. It is locative, but see Warder
      lesson 16: disappearing in (from) a place.
      ------
      >
      >
      > Ekamanta.m .thitaa kho, saariputta, taa devataa ma.m etadavocu.m -
      > on one side / stood / indeed / Sariputta / those / divine beings /
      > to me / this-said
      > Stood on one side indeed, Sariputta, those divine beings said this
      > to me -
      >
      ------
      Standing..
      ------
      >
      > Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu
      > anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
      > good / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable /
      > Sariputta / there-let...approach / out of compassion
      > Sir, may the kind Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there
      > [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'
      >
      -----
      N: saadhu: it were good, Bhante, if the Blessed one ...
      -------
      Nina.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ven. Sobhana, thank you. The name is Yong Peng. It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate
      Message 46 of 46 , Jul 4 4:39 AM
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        Dear Ven. Sobhana,

        thank you. The name is Yong Peng.

        It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate on point 1(a). This is exactly what the commentary says:

        saadhuuti aayaacanatthe nipaato.

        First, I annotate it for the beginners:

        saadhuuti aayaacan'atthe nipaato.

        Now, translating the commentary:

        'saadhu' (is) a particle for asking*, adhortation*, addressing*.

        * see PTS PED - aayaacana.

        Further explanation:

        In Pali, nipaata includes conjunctions and adverbs. So, we can translate 'saadhu' as 'please'.

        Finally, I make an attempt with the original sentence to show what I mean:

        Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
        please / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable / Sariputta /
        there-let...approach / out of compassion
        Please, sir, may the Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'

        There is a tendency for some, as I pointed in a recent post, to rationalise the Pali using an existing English translation. I find it uncomprehensible when given our level of Pali understanding, we can do a slightly better job. In fact, I also see lurking dangers in doing so. I do not intend to elaborate on this.

        As a PTS sponsoring member, I am also using F.L.Woodward's translation as a reference in this exercise, i.e., from AN1.1.1, another point which I have mentioned several times too. However, that does not mean it is my only reference, or that I have to reproduce directly from PTS or any other existing works. This "read and follow" mentality is more suitable for someone who only needs an English translation, and does not bother with the original Pali passage, not a Pali student.

        It is in fact much easier for me to type out the PTS translation, than doing extensive referencing on dictionaries, grammars, and cross checking other translations. However, this is not a "typing" exercise for me, and I would rather spend my time doing something more meaningful. Let's make this a good learning opportunity for everyone, so that the time and effort we put in is rewarding.

        Lastly, if you use additional examples in Pali, please bear in mind, it is your responsibility to provide an accurate English translation. Anyone can generate Pali sentences using the appropriate search tool/program.

        I will make this post as a 'landmark' message for the future. Thank you.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, USO wrote:

        Here are some of the meanings of Saadhu from One of the Pali-Myanmar Dictionaries.
        1. "i request you" (aayaacana); "I order you" (aanatti).
        2. o.k., alright(sampa.ticchana)
        3. interjection used to rejoice (anumodana)
        4. good, beautiful (sunadara, bhaddaka, sobhana)
        5. well (adverb)
        6.pure (parisuddha)
        7. wholesome action...

        Here, we take the first meaning in cases like the one you are discussing. The commentaries also explain as 'aayaacana'. In Burma, we explain like this: yena aayasmaa saariputto (atthi) tena upasa'nkamatu. 'Tena' here is used in the sense of second case: 'to', 'towards'. Here, it will be 'aayaacama' for a group of deities are requesting the Buddha.
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