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Re: Q. [Pali] sammaa samaadhi

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  • sakyaputtiyo
    Dear Nina, Thanks for a very good and clear exposition on sammaa samaadhi. I was studying Dutiya samaadhi Sutta and it shows two ways of vipassana practice.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jun 16, 2011
      Dear Nina,
      Thanks for a very good and clear exposition on sammaa samaadhi. I was studying "Dutiya samaadhi Sutta" and it shows two ways of vipassana practice. A person first practices vipassanaa and then later attains samatha - this is one of the two types of vipassana practices. The same has been said in Yuganadha vagga, Patisambhidaamagga. It is conveying, theoretically too, that vipassana can be practiced without the basis of jhaana. Although the sub-commentary says that this 'samatha' refers to the path consciousness moment concentration, the patisambhidamagga commentary says that it is the concentration present when a person is observing the impermanent and other characteristics, practicing vipassana. The question is can a person practice vipassana without any basis of samatha? What will be sammaa samaadhi in the case of a person who practices vipassana without the basis of jhaana and attain noble stages?

      One renown Meditation Teacher in Myanmar says that sammaa samaadhi and citta visuddhi are same. For those who follow samatha vehicle, access concentration and absorption concentration are sammaa samaadhi. And for those who follow vipassana vehicle, the momentary concentration is sammaa samadhi. He adds, based upon the commentaries that this momentary concentration starts to appear when naamaruupapariccheda knowledge appears and becomes stronger and stronger as one develops in vipassana. This concentration reaches a level that is equal to absorption. The Visuddhimagga, however, does not mention momentary concentration as citta visuddhi; while its sub-commentary does.

      According to Abhidhamma, as you pointed out the sammaa samaadhi as a supramundane path factor is available only in supramundane consciousnesses. As you said, the samaadhi of fruition absorption must be very very strong as it can be attained for extended period of time. But can the ekaggata cetasika present there be, at least technically called a path factor?

      Another thing i would like to discuss is why in the suttas the Buddha always said that four material jhana as sammaa samaadhi and also that why he did not mention immaterial jhaana ?

      Be Happy and Wise
      Bhante Sobhana

      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Sakyaputtiyo,
      > Op 15-jun-2011, om 15:03 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > dhamma friends, can we have a discussion about sammaa samaadhi?
      > > What is sammaa samaadhi? Is it only jhaanas or is it only the
      > > concentration in magga cittas?...based on pali literature.
      > ------
      > N: As you suggest, sammaa samaadhi is of a great variety, it has
      > several meanings, depending on the context. It is actually a
      > cetasika, mental factor, arising with every citta, moment of
      > consciousness. It is called ekaggataa cetasika, one-pointedness.
      >
      > Ekaggataa which has as function to focus on an object is translated
      > as 'one-pointedness' or concentration. When we hear the word
      > concentration we may believe that ekaggataa only occur in samatha,
      > tranquil meditation, but this is not so. It is true that when calm is
      > developed ekaggataa also develops, but ekaggataa does not only occur
      > in samatha. Ekaggataa accompanies every citta, although its quality
      > is different as it arises with different cittas.
      >
      > Ekaggataa which accompanies akusala ciata is also called 'micchaa-
      > samaadhi', wrong concentration. Ekaggataa which accompanies kusala
      > citta is also called 'sammaa-samaadhi', right concentration. Samaadhi
      > is another word for ekaggataa cetasika. Although wrong concentration
      > and right concentration are both ekaggataa cetasika their qualities
      > are different. Sammaa-samaadhi focuses on the object in the right
      > way, the wholesome way. There are many levels of right concentration.
      >
      > Sammaa-samaadhi is one of the jhaana-factors which are developed in
      > samatha in order to suppress the hindrances and attain jhaana. The
      > jhaana factors of applied thought (vitakka), sustained thought
      > (vicara), enthusiasm (piiti), happy feeling (sukha) and samaadhi have
      > to be developed together in order to attain jhaana. All the jhaana-
      > factors assist the citta to attain tranquillity by means of a
      > meditation subject.
      >
      > Sammaa-samaadhi is one of the factors of the eightfold Path. When
      > pa~n~naa knows, for example, the visible object which presents itself
      > as only a ruupa appearing through the eyes or the seeing which
      > presents itself as only a naama which experiences visible object,
      > there is also right concentration at that moment: sammaa samaadhi
      > focuses on the object in the right way.
      > When sammaa-samaadhi accompanies lokuttara citta, sammaa-samaadhi is
      > also lokuttara and it focuses on nibbaana. Then sammaa-samaadhi is a
      > factor of the supramundane eightfold Path (lokuttara magga).
      >
      > In the suttas right concentration is often defined as the four jhaana
      > stages, but not always. We have to study the context in each case.
      > Sometimes there is reference to samaadhi-bhaavanaa and this is the
      > knowledge of the destruction of the cankers of the arahat with jhaana
      > as basis (paadaka-jhaana). Thus in this case someone developed both
      > jhaana and vipassanaa and jhaana was the base for insight, he emerged
      > from jhaana and was mindful of the jhaanafactors and any reality that
      > appeared through the six doors.
      >
      > Sammaa samaadhi can also refer to samaadhi that accompanies the
      > fruition-consciousness (lokuttara vipaakacitta that is the result of
      > the magga-citta) of the arahat. This is the highest level of calm
      > since all defilements have been eradicated.
      >
      > Thus, there is a great variety of the quality of sammaa-samaadhi and
      > we have to study the different texts in order to understand the context.
      >
      > Nina.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: This is a very wide subject and I have to take more time to react to your questions. Wheel Publication 351/353, The Jhanas
      Message 2 of 5 , Jun 17, 2011
        Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
        Op 16-jun-2011, om 15:27 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

        > I was studying "Dutiya samaadhi Sutta" and it shows two ways of
        > vipassana practice.
        ------
        N: This is a very wide subject and I have to take more time to react
        to your questions.
        Wheel Publication 351/353, "The Jhanas" by Ven. Henepola Gunaratana
        (perhaps it is on line?) gives us many texts dealing with this subject.

        As we read in See A II, 157, Yuganaddhasutta, that there are four
        ways of development. Some people have accumulated skill and
        inclinations to develop jhaana and some do not. We read about
        someone who develops first calm and then insight, about someone who
        develops first insight and then calm, about someone who develops both
        of them yoked, and then the fourth way is about someone who has
        overcome the imperfections of insight (after the third stage of
        insight). It shows that people have different inclinations.

        Also those who do not develop jhaana and who attain enlightenment with
        'dry insight' have sammaasamaadhi accompanying lokuttara citta that
        has the same strength of concentration as that arising with the first
        jhaana. There is absorption in nibbaana.

        The Pa.tisambhidaamagga, as you pointed out, also deals with
        Yuganadha (XI), but I learnt that here it pertains to lokuttara
        citta.For example in the English translation by Ven. Nyanamoli, (no
        275) he develops serenity and insight coupled together with cessation
        (nirodha) as supporting object.

        -------

        S: The question is can a person practice vipassana without any basis
        of samatha? What will be sammaa samaadhi in the case of a person who
        practices vipassana without the basis of jhaana and attain noble stages?

        -------

        N: The sammaasamaadhi as Path factor has to accompany sammaa
        di.t.thi, right understanding. It focusses on the object of
        vipassanaa, thus a naama or ruupa that appears and assists in this
        way right understanding to penetrate its true nature. As the Myanmar
        teacher you mentioned explains, concentration grows stronger as
        pa~n~naa develops, especially when stages of insight have been reached.

        ---------

        S: One renown Meditation Teacher in Myanmar says that sammaa samaadhi
        and citta visuddhi are same. For those who follow samatha vehicle,
        access concentration and absorption concentration are sammaa
        samaadhi. And for those who follow vipassana vehicle, the momentary
        concentration is sammaa samadhi. He adds, based upon the commentaries
        that this momentary concentration starts to appear when
        naamaruupapariccheda knowledge appears and becomes stronger and
        stronger as one develops in vipassana.

        This concentration reaches a level that is equal to absorption.

        ------

        N: As I understood, only when enlightenment is attained it reaches
        the level of absorption.

        -------

        S:The Visuddhimagga, however, does not mention momentary
        concentration as citta visuddhi; while its sub-commentary does.

        --------

        N: I understood that citta visuddhi stands for concentration that
        goes together with vipassanaa. Whenever the word visuddhi is used I
        think of insight.

        As to momentary concentration, khanika samaadhi, perhaps this term
        can be used with different meanings. It is different from jhaana
        absorption.

        ---------

        In the next few days I shall continue with this subject.

        With respect,

        Nina.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: Samaadhi arising with fruition-consciousness, experiencing nibbaana, can arise again and again during that life, but only in
        Message 3 of 5 , Jun 19, 2011
          Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
          Op 16-jun-2011, om 15:27 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

          > According to Abhidhamma, as you pointed out the sammaa samaadhi as
          > a supramundane path factor is available only in supramundane
          > consciousnesses. As you said, the samaadhi of fruition absorption
          > must be very very strong as it can be attained for extended period
          > of time. But can the ekaggata cetasika present there be, at least
          > technically called a path factor?
          -------
          N: Samaadhi arising with fruition-consciousness, experiencing
          nibbaana, can arise again and again during that life, but only in the
          case of those who have developed both jhaana and vipassanaa.
          Ekaggataa or samaadhi arising with lokuttara citta is accompanied by
          lokuttara sammaasamaadhi and as such it is a path factor that is
          lokuttara. In the case of lokuttara magga-citta it is lokuttara
          kusala citta, and in the case of phalacitta it is lokuttara
          vipaakacitta, the result of the magga-citta, no matter it arises in
          the same process enlightenment is attained, or later on, many times
          during that life.
          -------
          >
          >
          > S: Another thing i would like to discuss is why in the suttas the
          > Buddha always said that four material jhana as sammaa samaadhi and
          > also that why he did not mention immaterial jhaana ?
          -----
          N: I would say, often, but not always. For example, in the Anguttara
          Nikaya, IV, 21, or, IX, 36.
          Anguttara Nikaya IX.36
          > Jhana Sutta
          > Mental Absorption
          > http://www.greatwesternvehicle.org/ati_website/canon/sutta/
          anguttara/an09-036.html
          >
          > "I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the
          first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the
          dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the
          infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell
          you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension
          of neither perception nor non-perception.
          >
          > "'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on
          the first jhana.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it
          said? There is the case where a monk, withdrawn from sensuality,
          withdrawn from unskillful qualities, enters & remains in the first
          jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by
          directed thought & evaluation. He regards whatever phenomena there
          that are connected with form, feeling, perception, fabrications, &
          consciousness, as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an
          arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a disintegration, an emptiness,
          not-self. He turns his mind away from those phenomena, and having
          done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is
          peace, this is exquisite -- the resolution of all fabrications; the
          relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving;
          dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.'

          -------

          N: When the Buddha spoke about jhaana the purpose was not to teach
          people samatha, but to teach anattaa. Also people before the Buddha's
          time knew how to develop the stages of jhaana. When someone emerged
          from jhaana they could be mindful and develop understanding of the
          jhaana factors and of any reality appearing at the present moment.

          The jhaanacitta of aruupajhaana is of the same type as the highest
          stage of ruupa-jhaana: jhaana factors have been abandoned stage by
          stage, but the factors of samaadhi and indifferent feeling, upekkhaa
          (instead of somanassa) remain.

          The sutta quoted above, explains that he should be aware of 'whatever
          phenomena there are'.

          ---------

          N: There is no rule that everybody should develop mundane jhaana in
          order to attain enlightenment. We read in the suttas that the Buddha
          knew the different faculties of different people.

          We read in the Puggala Pa~n~natti, the Fourth Book of the Abhidhamma :

          (1, 30): ‘Which is the person who is twice-liberated (ubhatobhaaga-
          vimutta)? It is one who, in his own person, has attained to the eight
          liberations (jhaanas), and through wise penetration his taints
          (aasava) have come to extinction.’

          (1, 31) ‘Which is the person who is liberated by wisdom (pa~n~naa-
          vimutta)? It is one who has not attained, in his own person, to the
          eight liberations, but through wise penetration his taints have come
          to extinction.’ ~

          Pali: Katamo ca puggalo paññāvimutto? Idhekacco puggalo na heva kho
          aṭṭha vimokkhe kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya cassa disvā
          āsavā parikkhīṇā honti. Ayaṃ vuccati puggalo paññāvimutto.
          PTS 73

          -----

          Also Ven. Henepola gives an explanation of the Susima sutta and
          commentary re dry insight.

          ------

          With respect,

          Nina.

          >
          >

          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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