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Re: [Pali] Re: AN2.4 Samacitta Vagga (9)

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  • Mahinda Palihawadana
    Dear ong Yong Peng and Nina, You are right in having doubts about the translation of pa.tipanna as proficient . Derived from the root pad- with the prefix
    Message 1 of 46 , Jun 7, 2011
      Dear ong Yong Peng and Nina,

      You are right in having doubts about the translation of 'pa.tipanna' as
      'proficient'. Derived from the root pad- with the prefix pa.ti- it should
      mean 'stepped on to' or "entered upon". So the meaning here should be "he is
      on the way to the pacification of sensualities .. etc."

      See PTS Dict. under 'pa.tipajjati', the verb whose PP is 'pa.tipanna'.
      On Tue, Jun 7, 2011 at 11:40 PM, Ong Yong Peng <palismith@...> wrote:

      > Dear Nina,
      > thank you. I felt similarly strange about PTS's use of 'proficient', I
      > quote: "He is proficient in his revulsion, his dispassion for, the ending of
      > sensuality."
      > This passage is interesting, and we are only halfway through it. When I
      > read it again, I can see that Sariputta is trying to teach the monks the
      > importance of the monastic discipline and meditation practice leading to
      > anagami.
      > The importance that a person has to put oneself through the process, to put
      > in the right effort, the right resolve, to get trained; that an anagami is
      > the person who has taken the steps to reach that stage, a message on
      > self-reliance.
      > I suggest we look at similar use of the word in other places in the suttas,
      > or we complete the remaining half of the sutta first so that we can give
      > 'pa.tipanna' a more adequare meaning in its context.
      > metta,
      > Yong Peng.
      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
      > > So kaamaana.myeva nibbidaaya viraagaaya nirodhaaya pa.tipanno hoti.
      > > he / of sensual pleasures-so / for disillusion / for dispassionateness /
      > for cessation / accomplished / is
      > > He is accomplished for the disillusion, dispassionateness and cessation
      > of sensual pleasures thus.
      > N: By right practice one becomes accomplished.
      > Perhaps 'accomplished for' could be changed: accomplished in.
      > Accomplished in disillusion sounds somewhat strange. Nibbidaa:
      > disenchantment. The meaning is that he is not deluded by sense pleasures,
      > that he does not find these attractive. He relinquishes them.
      > Suggested (but stand to be corrected):
      > Accomplished, as regards sensual pleasures, in disenchantment towards them,
      > in being dispassionate and in relinquishing them.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ven. Sobhana, thank you. The name is Yong Peng. It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate
      Message 46 of 46 , Jul 4, 2011
        Dear Ven. Sobhana,

        thank you. The name is Yong Peng.

        It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate on point 1(a). This is exactly what the commentary says:

        saadhuuti aayaacanatthe nipaato.

        First, I annotate it for the beginners:

        saadhuuti aayaacan'atthe nipaato.

        Now, translating the commentary:

        'saadhu' (is) a particle for asking*, adhortation*, addressing*.

        * see PTS PED - aayaacana.

        Further explanation:

        In Pali, nipaata includes conjunctions and adverbs. So, we can translate 'saadhu' as 'please'.

        Finally, I make an attempt with the original sentence to show what I mean:

        Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
        please / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable / Sariputta /
        there-let...approach / out of compassion
        Please, sir, may the Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'

        There is a tendency for some, as I pointed in a recent post, to rationalise the Pali using an existing English translation. I find it uncomprehensible when given our level of Pali understanding, we can do a slightly better job. In fact, I also see lurking dangers in doing so. I do not intend to elaborate on this.

        As a PTS sponsoring member, I am also using F.L.Woodward's translation as a reference in this exercise, i.e., from AN1.1.1, another point which I have mentioned several times too. However, that does not mean it is my only reference, or that I have to reproduce directly from PTS or any other existing works. This "read and follow" mentality is more suitable for someone who only needs an English translation, and does not bother with the original Pali passage, not a Pali student.

        It is in fact much easier for me to type out the PTS translation, than doing extensive referencing on dictionaries, grammars, and cross checking other translations. However, this is not a "typing" exercise for me, and I would rather spend my time doing something more meaningful. Let's make this a good learning opportunity for everyone, so that the time and effort we put in is rewarding.

        Lastly, if you use additional examples in Pali, please bear in mind, it is your responsibility to provide an accurate English translation. Anyone can generate Pali sentences using the appropriate search tool/program.

        I will make this post as a 'landmark' message for the future. Thank you.

        Yong Peng.

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, USO wrote:

        Here are some of the meanings of Saadhu from One of the Pali-Myanmar Dictionaries.
        1. "i request you" (aayaacana); "I order you" (aanatti).
        2. o.k., alright(sampa.ticchana)
        3. interjection used to rejoice (anumodana)
        4. good, beautiful (sunadara, bhaddaka, sobhana)
        5. well (adverb)
        6.pure (parisuddha)
        7. wholesome action...

        Here, we take the first meaning in cases like the one you are discussing. The commentaries also explain as 'aayaacana'. In Burma, we explain like this: yena aayasmaa saariputto (atthi) tena upasa'nkamatu. 'Tena' here is used in the sense of second case: 'to', 'towards'. Here, it will be 'aayaacama' for a group of deities are requesting the Buddha.
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