Re: AN2.4 Samacitta Vagga (9)
- Dear Nina and friends,
I had another look at PTS English edition, and it does not indicate how the translator arrived at "proficient in".
From the structure of the sutta, the term 'pa.tipanno' is used for kaama, and also bhava, ta.nhaa and lobha. My explanation is that the text refers to the Aryan on the path (hence 'pa.tipanno') to non-returning, proceeding to the cessation of kaama, bhava, ta.nhaa and lobha. I think this also fits the description of anaagaamii. What do you think?
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
As for pa.tipanna, I actually prefer the literal meaning as in progressing towards a goal, rather than already 'proficient' in it.
>> So kaamaana.myeva nibbidaaya viraagaaya nirodhaaya pa.tipanno hoti.
>> he / of sensual pleasures-so / for disillusion / for dispassionateness / for cessation / set out / is
>> He is set out for the disillusion, dispassionateness and cessation of sensual pleasures thus.
N: PTS: proficient in... in stead of: set out for (Perhaps better?)
- Dear Ven. Sobhana,
thank you. The name is Yong Peng.
It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate on point 1(a). This is exactly what the commentary says:
saadhuuti aayaacanatthe nipaato.
First, I annotate it for the beginners:
saadhuuti aayaacan'atthe nipaato.
Now, translating the commentary:
'saadhu' (is) a particle for asking*, adhortation*, addressing*.
* see PTS PED - aayaacana.
In Pali, nipaata includes conjunctions and adverbs. So, we can translate 'saadhu' as 'please'.
Finally, I make an attempt with the original sentence to show what I mean:
Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
please / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable / Sariputta /
there-let...approach / out of compassion
Please, sir, may the Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'
There is a tendency for some, as I pointed in a recent post, to rationalise the Pali using an existing English translation. I find it uncomprehensible when given our level of Pali understanding, we can do a slightly better job. In fact, I also see lurking dangers in doing so. I do not intend to elaborate on this.
As a PTS sponsoring member, I am also using F.L.Woodward's translation as a reference in this exercise, i.e., from AN1.1.1, another point which I have mentioned several times too. However, that does not mean it is my only reference, or that I have to reproduce directly from PTS or any other existing works. This "read and follow" mentality is more suitable for someone who only needs an English translation, and does not bother with the original Pali passage, not a Pali student.
It is in fact much easier for me to type out the PTS translation, than doing extensive referencing on dictionaries, grammars, and cross checking other translations. However, this is not a "typing" exercise for me, and I would rather spend my time doing something more meaningful. Let's make this a good learning opportunity for everyone, so that the time and effort we put in is rewarding.
Lastly, if you use additional examples in Pali, please bear in mind, it is your responsibility to provide an accurate English translation. Anyone can generate Pali sentences using the appropriate search tool/program.
I will make this post as a 'landmark' message for the future. Thank you.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, USO wrote:
Here are some of the meanings of Saadhu from One of the Pali-Myanmar Dictionaries.
1. "i request you" (aayaacana); "I order you" (aanatti).
2. o.k., alright(sampa.ticchana)
3. interjection used to rejoice (anumodana)
4. good, beautiful (sunadara, bhaddaka, sobhana)
5. well (adverb)
7. wholesome action...
Here, we take the first meaning in cases like the one you are discussing. The commentaries also explain as 'aayaacana'. In Burma, we explain like this: yena aayasmaa saariputto (atthi) tena upasa'nkamatu. 'Tena' here is used in the sense of second case: 'to', 'towards'. Here, it will be 'aayaacama' for a group of deities are requesting the Buddha.