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Re: [Pali] Re: The New Pali Course Part III [46/120]

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  • Bryan Levman
    Dear Nina, ...  I ve been studying the Amba.t.tha sutta so here is the beginning of it  (DN I, 87) 254 . eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosalesu
    Message 1 of 102 , May 4, 2011
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      Dear Nina,



      >N: Could you please illustrate this with an example? I like to learn

      >more about word order, I think it important. Thanks in advance,

      > Nina.

       I've been studying the Amba.t.tha sutta so here is the beginning of
      it  (DN I, 87)



      254 . eva.m me suta.m eka.m samaya.m bhagavaa kosalesu caarika.m
      caramaano mahataa bhikkhusa"nghena saddhi.m pa~ncamattehi
      bhikkhusatehi yena icchaana"ngala.m naama kosalaana.m
      braahma.nagaamo tadavasari. tatra suda.m bhagavaa icchaana"ngale
      viharati icchaana"ngalavanasa.n.de.



      As you can seen, “me” comes before “suta.m” (the dependent word before
      the word that governs it), “caarika.m” comes before “caramaano” (going on
      a journey), the phrase “mahataa bhikkhusa"nghena” comes before the
      postposition “saddhi.m” on which it is dependent (together with the
      bhikkhu sangha), “icchaana"ngala.m” before the word “naama” (a town
      named...., but in Paali we say  Icchaanankala by name), “kosalaana.m
      braahma.na” before “gaamo” (a brahmin village of the Kosalanas, again,
      the descriptives before the main word that governs them, i. e. gaamo,
      village), etc.,



      Walshe translates this as "Thus have I heard. Once the Lord was
      touring Kosala with a large number of monks, some five hundred, and he
      came to a Kosalan Brahmin village called Icchaanankala. And he stayed in
      the dense jungle of Icchaanankala.



      This is an old syntactic principle in Vedic, Pali and both Munda and
      Dravidian (two of the other languages that were spoken during the
      Buddha's lifetime and also today) that generally, dependent adjectives,
      phrases and clauses come before the word on which they depend. Of course the word order can be changed without necessarily changing the meaning (because of the case endings which tend to keep the meaning straight) and when that is done, - i. e. the usual word order changed - it is usually for emphasis. Hope this
      helps,



      Metta, Bryan




















       



      --- On Wed, 5/4/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

      From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
      Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: The New Pali Course Part III [46/120]
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Received: Wednesday, May 4, 2011, 6:36 AM
















       









      Dear Bryan,

      Op 3-mei-2011, om 22:37 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:



      > Thanks for the correction and it does sound better; I agree that

      > sena cetasaa probably goes with pasanno (although the more normal

      > word order would be sena cetasaa pasanno with the dependent phrase

      > before the adjective),

      -------

      N: Could you please illustrate this with an example? I like to learn

      more about word order, I think it important. Thanks in advance,

      Nina.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Levman
      Thanks Nina for the explanation. You certainly know more about this material (Abhidhamma) than I do, Metta, Bryan ... From: Nina van Gorkom
      Message 102 of 102 , Jul 26, 2011
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        Thanks Nina for the explanation. You certainly know more about this material (Abhidhamma) than I do,

        Metta, Bryan



        --- On Tue, 7/26/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        Subject: Re: [Pali] The New Pali Course Part III [50/120]
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Tuesday, July 26, 2011, 1:47 PM
















         









        Dear Bryan,

        Op 26-jul-2011, om 14:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:



        > I am not so sure about maggaphala as a dvandva. The PED seems to

        > suggest that the compound is identical with sotaapattiphala, i. .e

        > the fruit of entering upon the path, which would make it a gen.

        > tatpurusa.

        ------

        N: There are the expressions: sotaapatti magga and sotaapatti phala.

        I think that these refer to the magga-citta (lokuttara kusala citta)

        of the sotaapanna and the phalacitta (lokuttara vipaakacitta

        immediately following) of the sotaapanna. Thus, sotapattiphala: who

        has realized the fruition-consciousness of the stage of the sotaapanna.

        I have come across the expression of someone who should realize

        maggaphala. I take this as: realize maggacitta and phalacitta.



        -------

        Nina.



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