Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Pali] Jhana translation in context of samma samadhi

Expand Messages
  • Kumara Bhikkhu
    It depends on what kind of jhana we refer to. For the jhana according to orthodox Theravada, as described in Visuddhimagga, absorption is very descriptive of
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 24 8:37 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      It depends on what kind of jhana we refer to.

      For the jhana according to orthodox Theravada, as described in Visuddhimagga, 'absorption' is very descriptive of the experience, thus quite apt. However, the jhana as described in early texts is quite different. Being part of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is said to be "kamma that is... leading to the ending of kamma" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.235.than.html), 'burning' is extremely apt.

      Earlier, I tried to send a file containing a comparison table of the 2, but it didn't go through. Now I'm sending it again without the attachment. You can ask from me. I've also come up with a list of terms related to samadhi that is based on the descriptions of the early tests and not influenced by Visuddhimagga. I can email to anyone who would like to have them.

      I'm pretty excited by this discovery, as this is how I notice suffering being eradicated permanently.

      kb

      Dieter wrote thus at 16:30 24/04/2011:
      >Dear Dhamma friends,
      >I like to ask for you help to clarify a point of discussion which developed out of following:
      >
      >X:The literal meaning is "burning," not "absorption". (I presume the "burning" pertains to attacking the hindrances.)
      >
      >D:Ven. Henepola Gunaratana , Nyanatiloka, Nyanaponika , P.A.Payutto chose ' absorption '
      >Curious to learn about your evidence

      ....

      >I am aware that any (English) translation can only be an approach,
      >but still believe ,' burning' does not fit and 'absorption' is fitting
      >best.
      >Thanks for your comment.
      >
      >With Metta Dieter
    • Dieter Moeller
      Dear Venerable Kumara, thank you for the response. I hope it could be figured out why your message did not reach the group. you wrote: It depends on what kind
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 25 10:25 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Venerable Kumara,

        thank you for the response. I hope it could be figured out why your message did not reach the group.

        you wrote:
        It depends on what kind of jhana we refer to.
        >For the jhana according to orthodox Theravada, as described in Visuddhimagga, 'absorption' is very descriptive of the experience, thus quite apt. However, the jhana as described in early texts is quite different. Being part of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is said to be "kamma that is... leading to the ending of kamma" (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.235.than.html), 'burning' is extremely apt.


        D: interesting here to compare : http://www.leighb.com/jhanantp.htm :
        " The Jhanas as discussed in the suttas are accessible to many people. The suttas seem to indicate that they were just part of the monastics' training program; thus they were not a big deal and were accessible to many. However, the Visuddhimagga states in section XII.8 that of those who undertake the meditation path, only one in 1,000,000 (at best) can reach absorption 1. We don't have to take this figure literally to begin to understand that the Jhanas as discussed in the Visuddhimagga are of a much deeper level of concentration than those described in the suttas. Basically, the Jhanas as described in the Visuddhimagga seem to be much more developed and systematized than those of the suttas. Even the factors given for the first four Jhanas are not the same: see The Traditional Factors of the 8 Jhanas. snip "



        I think the diffence of interpretation is depending whether the training is meant or its final aim, i.e. burning may fit in respect to fully abolishment of kamma and the hindrances at Arahantship.
        However for the former which I think is of major interest for us, the use of 'absorption' seems to me the best


        VenK.: Earlier, I tried to send a file containing a comparison table of the 2, but it didn't go through. Now I'm sending it again without the attachment. You can ask from me. I've also come up with a list of terms related to samadhi that is based on the descriptions of the early tests and not influenced by Visuddhimagga. I can email to anyone who would like to have them.

        D: interesting , does your list go with above mentioned link (the traditional factors of the 8 Jhanas)


        with Metta Dieter






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.