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Re: upanisasampanna

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  • Dhivan Thomas Jones
    Hi Jayarava, When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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      Hi Jayarava,

      "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

      So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.

      Now in English:

      "Mindfulness and full awareness being present, for someone completely mindful and fully aware, the conditions for shame and fear of wrongdoing are fully present."

      Dhivan x
    • jayarava
      Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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        Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:

        "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

        'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'

        This makes sense of it I think.

        John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.

        There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.

        Thanks again
        Jayarava
      • jayarava
        ... One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax: Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "James Whelan" <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
          > To say that an effect 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least)
          > something of a novel idea.

          One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax:
          Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m vadaami, no anupanisa.m. Kaa ca, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa upanisaa? ‘Viraago’tissa vacaniiya.m.

          "I say that liberation has a precondition, and is not without a precondition. And what, monks, is the precondition of liberation? I would say it is dispassion."

          So AN 8.81 says that vimutti is upanisasampanna 'endowed with a precondition'. I.e. a precondition for the arising of liberation has been identified.

          I'm very doubtful about using 'cause' rather than 'condition' in this context. Upanisaa, like its synonym nidaana, suggests 'resting on'. As does the etymology of pa.ticca 'grounded on, going back to'.

          If you do know of a text which clearly says that "x causes y" with an active verb, I would be very interested to read it.

          Best Wishes
          Jayarava
        • Wayne
          When and where does the beginners class start? metta, Wayne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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            When and where does the beginners class start?
















            metta,
            Wayne

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Wayne, ... N: Welcome here. I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, Grasje : For people who are just starting with pali the pali
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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              Dear Wayne,
              Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

              > When and where does the beginners class start?
              -------
              N: Welcome here.
              I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":
              For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://
              www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would
              recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the
              primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the
              beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives
              you more opportunity to practice the declensions.

              ------

              As soon as you get the hang of reading (sooner as you think! Try it
              at lesson 7 from Narada thera's course) it is very worthwile to
              install the pali text reader: http://sourceforge.net/projects/
              digitalpali/ Then study the anguttara nikaya. The repeated frases
              make it a very good start.

              -----

              On http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm the Dhammapada is
              available in complete (explained) translation and sound files. Klick
              Pali lessons (on the left), klick 3, readings in pali text (on the
              right). The Dhammapada is poetic. The short sentences are much more
              difficult to translate and understand as the long ones from the
              Anguttara Nikaya. But this concise summary of the dhamma is very
              motivating to study, the translations, explanations and the
              soundfiles are very helpful.

              (end letter Ria)

              ------

              Use the home page of this group. [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net

              On top is a green line with drop down menues, and put the cursor on
              the second part of this line for Pali.

              Success with your study. You can always ask questions.

              Nina.







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear Dhivan, Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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                Dear Dhivan,

                Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which would make it a tatpurusa (usu. an instrumental tatpurusa), in my opinion,

                Metta, Bryan



                --- On Sun, 3/20/11, jayarava <jayarava@...> wrote:

                From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
                Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:37 AM
















                 









                Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:



                "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"



                'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'



                This makes sense of it I think.



                John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.



                There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.



                Thanks again

                Jayarava





























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dhivan Thomas Jones
                Dear Bryan, Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me. Dhivan
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 22, 2011
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                  Dear Bryan,

                  Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me.

                  Dhivan
                • Wayne
                  Nina, Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera? Wayne ... From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member To:
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
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                    Nina,
                    Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?
                    Wayne

                    --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                    From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                    Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member
                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 8:32 AM
















                     









                    Dear Wayne,

                    Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:



                    > When and where does the beginners class start?

                    -------

                    N: Welcome here.

                    I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":

                    For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://

                    www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would

                    recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the

                    primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the

                    beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives

                    you more opportunity to practice the declensions.



                    ------



















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Wayne, It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our moderator, will help you, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 9, 2011
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                      Dear Wayne,
                      It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our
                      moderator, will help you,
                      Nina.
                      Op 30-mrt-2011, om 8:09 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                      > Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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