Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu

Expand Messages
  • BkhPali
    Dear Tharpa, Yes, I can confirm that only the verses are considered the canonical/sutta part of the Vimana stories. Same for the Dhp, Petavathu, Theragatha,
    Message 1 of 16 , Mar 11, 2011
      Dear Tharpa,

      Yes, I can confirm that only the verses are considered the
      canonical/sutta part of the Vimana stories. Same for the Dhp, Petavathu,
      Theragatha, Therigatha and Jataka. The Snp, Ud, and Itv have mixed prose
      and verse. You can confirm this if you check the DPR.

      Personally, I prefered the translation of Pv and Vv in Minor Anthologies
      Vol. IV by I.B. Horner to the more recent translation by U Ba Kyaw,
      although the latter may be more useful academically. At the
      recommendation of the monks I was with at the time, I only read the
      verses and was able to get enough meaning out of them to be useful.

      Best wishes,
      BKh


      Nina van Gorkom wrote:
      >
      >
      > Dear Tharpa,
      > I have this in hard cover and also 'Vimaana Stories, the commentary
      > translated by Peter Masefield. When I compare the first Vimaana in
      > Horner's translation with this commentary, the text is the same at
      > the beginning, also the verses, but then there is much more
      > elaboration in the Commentary translated by Masefield.
      > It seems that the verses are the sutta text, because in the separate
      > co. the words of the verses are elaborated on.
      > Actually there is the same problem with the Jaatakas: the stories and
      > the verses, and some say that the verses are the oldest. But I am
      > just concerned with the contents and what I can learn from these
      > texts for my daily life.
      > Nina.
      > Op 6-mrt-2011, om 20:49 heeft Tharpa het volgende geschreven:
      >
      > > PTS is generally pretty good about distinguishing translations of the
      > > suttas from the commentaries. However, I have recently started reading
      > > Vimaanavatthu: Stories of the Mansions, translated by I.B. Horner, and
      > > it seems like maybe it mixes translations of the suttas and
      > > commentaries
      > > together.
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • tharpachozang
      Dear Bhante, Thanks for your response. As near as I can figure out, U Ba Kyaw s work is a translation of the commentaries, not the Vimaanavatthu itself, so
      Message 2 of 16 , Mar 20, 2011
        Dear Bhante,

        Thanks for your response. As near as I can figure out, U Ba Kyaw's work is a translation of the commentaries, not the Vimaanavatthu itself, so it's not of interest to me at this point.

        For the time being I will just read the verses, though Dr. Masefield's response still makes me wonder. I know hardly any Pali, but if I get the time maybe I'll take a look at the Pali Vimaanavatthu and see if I can figure out the question.

        Also, thanks for the tip about the DPR. I just installed it, will try it out later.

        Mudita,

        Tharpa

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, BkhPali <bkhpali@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Tharpa,
        >
        > Yes, I can confirm that only the verses are considered the
        > canonical/sutta part of the Vimana stories. Same for the Dhp, Petavathu,
        > Theragatha, Therigatha and Jataka. The Snp, Ud, and Itv have mixed prose
        > and verse. You can confirm this if you check the DPR.
        >
        > Personally, I prefered the translation of Pv and Vv in Minor Anthologies
        > Vol. IV by I.B. Horner to the more recent translation by U Ba Kyaw,
        > although the latter may be more useful academically. At the
        > recommendation of the monks I was with at the time, I only read the
        > verses and was able to get enough meaning out of them to be useful.
        >
        > Best wishes,
        > BKh
        >
        >
        > Nina van Gorkom wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Dear Tharpa,
        > > I have this in hard cover and also 'Vimaana Stories, the commentary
        > > translated by Peter Masefield. When I compare the first Vimaana in
        > > Horner's translation with this commentary, the text is the same at
        > > the beginning, also the verses, but then there is much more
        > > elaboration in the Commentary translated by Masefield.
        > > It seems that the verses are the sutta text, because in the separate
        > > co. the words of the verses are elaborated on.
        > > Actually there is the same problem with the Jaatakas: the stories and
        > > the verses, and some say that the verses are the oldest. But I am
        > > just concerned with the contents and what I can learn from these
        > > texts for my daily life.
        > > Nina.
        > > Op 6-mrt-2011, om 20:49 heeft Tharpa het volgende geschreven:
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • tharpachozang
        A follow-up: I just start reading PTS s big three-volume translation of the Jatakas. 95% of the time, PTS is honest about their titles. If a book is part of
        Message 3 of 16 , Jun 28, 2013
          A follow-up:

          I just start reading PTS's big three-volume translation of the Jatakas. 95% of the time, PTS is honest about their titles. If a book is part of the Tipitika, then the translation is only a translation of the Tipitika, uncorrupted by commentary. Certainly the translators refer to the commentaries when making their translations, sometimes overriding them, and sometimes there's a little bit of commentary in the footnotes, which is great, but there's no way anyone could mistake commentary for Tipitika.

          Reaching the Khuddhaka, I was surprised to discover that the PTS Vimaanavatthu translation was not just Tipitika, but had commentary mixed in. When I started reading the PTS Jataka translation, and got to the eighth sutta and it seemed to be speaking in the translator's voice, I became suspicious and got out my trusty DPR and came to the startling conclusion that the Jatakas are only a few verses each, having nothing to do with previous incarnations. The fat three-volume set is mostly commentary. A translation of the Jatakas would be a single slim volume.

          This was startling to me because I had always heard that the Jatakas are about previous incarnations of the bodhisatta, and now I realize that that's just commentary. The Jatakas themselves are just a few verses each, similar to the Dhammapada, etc. Nina suggested that the Jataka verses might be older, but I hadn't realized that only the verses were in the Tipitika.

          I hope that one day a translation of the Jatakas free of commentary is produced. For now I will just read the verses and skip over the commentary.

          If I'm mistaken about this that only the verses are in the Tipitika, then correct me, but I've double-checked on Metta.lk and the Jatakas appear to be very small and only the verses.
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Tharpachozang, ... N: This need not be any problem. In reality there are no persons, no deities, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. What can I learn from the
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 6, 2013
            Dear Tharpachozang,
            Op 28-jun-2013, om 19:10 heeft tharpachozang het volgende geschreven:

            > If I'm mistaken about this that only the verses are in the
            > Tipitika, then correct me, but I've double-checked on Metta.lk and
            > the Jatakas appear to be very small and only the verses.
            -------
            N: This need not be any problem. In reality there are no persons, no
            deities, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. What can I learn from the
            Jaatakas and commentary? They teach me how to develop what is
            wholesome, sobhana cetasikas, in daily life. That is what really
            matters. When reading we can always consider: what is real now and
            what can I learn here?
            Some people doubt about the truthfulness of the commentaries, but
            then, let us read them and see what they tell us. That is more
            convincing than historical arguments. Any teaching that helps me to
            understand reality now I find reliable, because I can check it myself.
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • a6a44357
            Dear Pali group I am most interested to learn the question that this reply from Nina refers to, I unfortunately missed it. Would you please be so kind as to
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 6, 2013
              Dear Pali group
              I am most interested to learn the question that this reply from Nina refers
              to, I unfortunately missed it.
              Would you please be so kind as to send me a link to it.
              I usually stay in the background but this answer from Nina looks important,
              too important to miss.
              Thank You,
              Respectfully
              R Arber

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
              van Gorkom
              Sent: July-06-13 12:08 AM
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Vimaanavatthu

              Dear Tharpachozang,
              Op 28-jun-2013, om 19:10 heeft tharpachozang het volgende geschreven:

              > If I'm mistaken about this that only the verses are in the Tipitika,
              > then correct me, but I've double-checked on Metta.lk and the Jatakas
              > appear to be very small and only the verses.
              -------
              N: This need not be any problem. In reality there are no persons, no
              deities, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. What can I learn from the Jaatakas
              and commentary? They teach me how to develop what is wholesome, sobhana
              cetasikas, in daily life. That is what really matters. When reading we can
              always consider: what is real now and what can I learn here?
              Some people doubt about the truthfulness of the commentaries, but then, let
              us read them and see what they tell us. That is more convincing than
              historical arguments. Any teaching that helps me to understand reality now I
              find reliable, because I can check it myself.
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Paa.li-Parisaa
              - The Pali Collective [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net [Pali Document
              Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
              only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Kumara Bhikkhu
              You got it right. The actual Jataka text consists of only verses. You may notice that sometimes the story does not even gel with the verses. The rather
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 7, 2013
                You got it right. The actual Jataka text consists of only verses. You
                may notice that sometimes the story does not even gel with the
                verses. The rather strained connection gives the impression of a
                force fit. The is parallel to the Dhammapada verses and the stories
                that are attached to them.

                While the word Jataka has popularly been translated as Birth Stories,
                per se it only means "born; arisen". My teacher, Bhante Aggacitta,
                said that it originally probably refers to the verses that has
                spontaneously arisen in the mind of the person/people who uttered these words.

                Btw, I'd like to invite you all to www.Dhammawheel.com. It's a better
                platform for discussions, and more active.

                kb

                tharpachozang wrote thus at 01:10 AM 29-06-13:





                >A follow-up:
                >
                >I just start reading PTS's big three-volume translation of the
                >Jatakas. 95% of the time, PTS is honest about their titles. If a
                >book is part of the Tipitika, then the translation is only a
                >translation of the Tipitika, uncorrupted by commentary. Certainly
                >the translators refer to the commentaries when making their
                >translations, sometimes overriding them, and sometimes there's a
                >little bit of commentary in the footnotes, which is great, but
                >there's no way anyone could mistake commentary for Tipitika.
                >
                >Reaching the Khuddhaka, I was surprised to discover that the PTS
                >Vimaanavatthu translation was not just Tipitika, but had commentary
                >mixed in. When I started reading the PTS Jataka translation, and
                >got to the eighth sutta and it seemed to be speaking in the
                >translator's voice, I became suspicious and got out my trusty DPR
                >and came to the startling conclusion that the Jatakas are only a few
                >verses each, having nothing to do with previous incarnations. The
                >fat three-volume set is mostly commentary. A translation of the
                >Jatakas would be a single slim volume.
                >
                >This was startling to me because I had always heard that the Jatakas
                >are about previous incarnations of the bodhisatta, and now I realize
                >that that's just commentary. The Jatakas themselves are just a few
                >verses each, similar to the Dhammapada, etc. Nina suggested that the
                >Jataka verses might be older, but I hadn't realized that only the
                >verses were in the Tipitika.
                >
                >I hope that one day a translation of the Jatakas free of commentary
                >is produced. For now I will just read the verses and skip over the commentary.
                >
                >If I'm mistaken about this that only the verses are in the Tipitika,
                >then correct me, but I've double-checked on Metta.lk and the Jatakas
                >appear to be very small and only the verses.
              • tharpachozang
                Thank you, Bhante, I appreciate your response. What seems to make the Jatakas different from all of the other books in the Sutta Pitaka, is that most of the
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 12, 2013
                  Thank you, Bhante, I appreciate your response. What seems to make the Jatakas different from all of the other books in the Sutta Pitaka, is that most of the verses seem to *demand* commentary. That is, the verses contain references to proper names, and so they are unintelligible by themselves. Different than say, the verses in the Dhammapada, which have tremendous Dhammic value and do not seem to require commentary. So much so, that it is difficult to read the Jataka verses systematically without knowing the background stories.

                  Do you have any thoughts on what this means, why the verses in the Jatakas contain proper names and do not seem to stand by themselves, unlike all of the other books in the Sutta Pitaka?

                  I appreciate the invitation to DhammaWheel. I have not checked it out yet, but one thing I like about this group is that because it has Pali in the name it seems to get a higher level of discussion than you sometimes get in other Buddhist groups.


                  Mudita,

                  tharpa

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kumara Bhikkhu <kumara.bhikkhu@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > You got it right. The actual Jataka text consists of only verses. You
                  > may notice that sometimes the story does not even gel with the
                  > verses. The rather strained connection gives the impression of a
                  > force fit. The is parallel to the Dhammapada verses and the stories
                  > that are attached to them.
                  >
                  > While the word Jataka has popularly been translated as Birth Stories,
                  > per se it only means "born; arisen". My teacher, Bhante Aggacitta,
                  > said that it originally probably refers to the verses that has
                  > spontaneously arisen in the mind of the person/people who uttered these words.
                  >
                  > Btw, I'd like to invite you all to www.Dhammawheel.com. It's a better
                  > platform for discussions, and more active.
                  >
                  > kb
                  >
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Arber, In which way can I helpyou? I see that the question is already attached to. Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 13, 2013
                    Dear Arber,
                    In which way can I helpyou?
                    I see that the question is already attached to.
                    Nina.
                    Op 6-jul-2013, om 18:39 heeft a6a44357 het volgende geschreven:

                    > Dear Pali group
                    > I am most interested to learn the question that this reply from
                    > Nina refers
                    > to, I unfortunately missed it.
                    > Would you please be so kind as to send me a link to it.
                    > I usually stay in the background but this answer from Nina looks
                    > important,
                    > too important to miss.
                    > Thank You,
                    > Respectfully
                    > R Arber
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of Nina
                    > van Gorkom
                    > Sent: July-06-13 12:08 AM
                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Vimaanavatthu
                    >
                    > Dear Tharpachozang,
                    > Op 28-jun-2013, om 19:10 heeft tharpachozang het volgende geschreven:
                    >
                    > > If I'm mistaken about this that only the verses are in the Tipitika,
                    > > then correct me, but I've double-checked on Metta.lk and the Jatakas
                    > > appear to be very small and only the verses.
                    > -------
                    > N: This need not be any problem. In reality there are no persons, no
                    > deities, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. What can I learn from the
                    > Jaatakas
                    > and commentary? They teach me how to develop what is wholesome,
                    > sobhana
                    > cetasikas, in daily life. That is what really matters. When reading
                    > we can
                    > always consider: what is real now and what can I learn here?
                    > Some people doubt about the truthfulness of the commentaries, but
                    > then, let
                    > us read them and see what they tell us. That is more convincing than
                    > historical arguments. Any teaching that helps me to understand
                    > reality now I
                    > find reliable, because I can check it myself.
                    > Nina.
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Robert Arber, Thanks for your good question. ... N: We believe that Robert sees, Nina sees, but in reality seeing is one moment of consciousness, citta,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
                      Dear Robert Arber,
                      Thanks for your good question.
                      Op 15 jul 2013, om 05:49 heeft a6a44357 het volgende geschreven:
                      >
                      > � In reality there are no persons, no deities, only citta, cetasika and ruupa. � What does this mean please?
                      ---------
                      N: We believe that Robert sees, Nina sees, but in reality seeing is one moment of consciousness, citta, that sees. It sees for an extremely short moment and is then gone completely. It is the same with hearing, thinking, any moment of experience. They are all elements, arising because of conditions. They arise for a very short moment and are then gone. It seems that seeing lasts, but in reality it is succeeded by other moments of citta, such as thinking about what is seen. They are all different moments and none of them lasts.
                      This is not theory. We shall have more understanding of what citta is if we are aware of seeing at this very moment. It arises because of visible object or colour and eyesense. It just sees visible object, it does not see a person or thing. There is no one there only different cittas, accompanied by different cetasikas, mental factors. Visible object and eyesense are ruupa, physical phenomena and these do not know anything. In fact our life is naama, realities which experience something, and ruupas which do not experience anything. Just elements arising because of conditions.
                      Seeing is one citta and when it arises there cannot be hearing at the same time. Seeing experiences visible object. Hearing is another citta that experiences sound. It may seem that we can see and hear at the same time, but this is a delusion. Each citta can experience only one object at a time, and it falls away immediately. After it has fallen away we think of what has been seen and heard, and then we live in the world of concepts.
                      When realities are taken as a mass, a collection, there is the world of many people. Cittas arise and fall away in succession very rapidly, they are like a flash. That is why we have a concept or idea of what appears as something permanent. We have to be brave in order to understand that what appears is just a reality. We need courage to let go of wrong view that clings to the idea of person or �self�. Right understanding leads to detachment, but our nature is attachment.
                      ----------
                      Nina.




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • a6a44357
                      Dear Nina van Gorkom Thank you for your kind reply, I would very much like to follow up on your answer is there a book you could recommend please. Most
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 16, 2013
                        Dear Nina van Gorkom
                        Thank you for your kind reply, I would very much like to follow up on your
                        answer is there a book you could recommend please.
                        Most grateful,
                        Robert Arber

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
                        van Gorkom
                        Sent: July-16-13 6:10 AM
                        To: pali@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Vimaanavatthu

                        Dear Robert Arber,
                        Thanks for your good question.
                        Op 15 jul 2013, om 05:49 heeft a6a44357 het volgende geschreven:
                        >
                        > " In reality there are no persons, no deities, only citta, cetasika and
                        ruupa. " What does this mean please?
                        ---------
                        N: We believe that Robert sees, Nina sees, but in reality seeing is one
                        moment of consciousness, citta, that sees. It sees for an extremely short
                        moment and is then gone completely. It is the same with hearing, thinking,
                        any moment of experience. They are all elements, arising because of
                        conditions. They arise for a very short moment and are then gone. It seems
                        that seeing lasts, but in reality it is succeeded by other moments of citta,
                        such as thinking about what is seen. They are all different moments and none
                        of them lasts.
                        This is not theory. We shall have more understanding of what citta is if we
                        are aware of seeing at this very moment. It arises because of visible object
                        or colour and eyesense. It just sees visible object, it does not see a
                        person or thing. There is no one there only different cittas, accompanied by
                        different cetasikas, mental factors. Visible object and eyesense are ruupa,
                        physical phenomena and these do not know anything. In fact our life is
                        naama, realities which experience something, and ruupas which do not
                        experience anything. Just elements arising because of conditions.
                        Seeing is one citta and when it arises there cannot be hearing at the same
                        time. Seeing experiences visible object. Hearing is another citta that
                        experiences sound. It may seem that we can see and hear at the same time,
                        but this is a delusion. Each citta can experience only one object at a time,
                        and it falls away immediately. After it has fallen away we think of what has
                        been seen and heard, and then we live in the world of concepts.
                        When realities are taken as a mass, a collection, there is the world of
                        many people. Cittas arise and fall away in succession very rapidly, they are
                        like a flash. That is why we have a concept or idea of what appears as
                        something permanent. We have to be brave in order to understand that what
                        appears is just a reality. We need courage to let go of wrong view that
                        clings to the idea of person or "self". Right understanding leads to
                        detachment, but our nature is attachment.
                        ----------
                        Nina.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Paa.li-Parisaa
                        - The Pali Collective [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net [Pali Document
                        Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                        [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                        [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                        Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                        only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • Kumara Bhikkhu
                        I get what you mean. As they say in America, beats me. (shrug) If you start a topic on this in DW (under Classical Theravada), you might get an answer. Members
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 26, 2013
                          I get what you mean. As they say in America, beats me. (shrug)

                          If you start a topic on this in DW (under Classical Theravada), you
                          might get an answer. Members there are less orthodox.

                          tharpachozang wrote thus at 08:29 AM 13-07-13:

                          >Thank you, Bhante, I appreciate your response. What seems to make
                          >the Jatakas different from all of the other books in the Sutta
                          >Pitaka, is that most of the verses seem to *demand*
                          >commentary. That is, the verses contain references to proper names,
                          >and so they are unintelligible by themselves. Different than say,
                          >the verses in the Dhammapada, which have tremendous Dhammic value
                          >and do not seem to require commentary. So much so, that it is
                          >difficult to read the Jataka verses systematically without knowing
                          >the background stories.
                          >
                          >Do you have any thoughts on what this means, why the verses in the
                          >Jatakas contain proper names and do not seem to stand by themselves,
                          >unlike all of the other books in the Sutta Pitaka?
                          >
                          >I appreciate the invitation to DhammaWheel. I have not checked it
                          >out yet, but one thing I like about this group is that because it
                          >has Pali in the name it seems to get a higher level of discussion
                          >than you sometimes get in other Buddhist groups.
                          >
                          >
                          >Mudita,
                          >
                          >tharpa
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Robert A, ... N: Would you like to try my Introducion to Abhidhamma, it may be in the files section of our list. Or try Zolag:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 30, 2013
                            Dear Robert A,
                            Op 17 jul 2013, om 04:45 heeft a6a44357 het volgende geschreven:

                            > Thank you for your kind reply, I would very much like to follow up on your
                            > answer is there a book you could recommend please.
                            -------
                            N: Would you like to try my Introducion to Abhidhamma, it may be in the files section of our list.
                            Or try Zolag: <http://www.zolag.co.uk/index.html> You could try my 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life'.
                            ------
                            Nina.



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.