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FW: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu

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  • Dhammadarsa
    Please see below for the reply from Dr Peter Masefield. Integrating Emotion and Intellect = Intelligence Dhammadarsa
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 10, 2011
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      Please see below for the reply from Dr Peter Masefield.









      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect = Intelligence




      Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
      Buddhist Monk

      Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
      Wang Noi
      Ayuthaya
      Thailand


      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa


      mobile:

      +66850941669




      <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

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      From: peter masefield [mailto:soi38@...]
      Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2011 3:29 AM
      To: Dhammadarsa
      Subject: Re: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu



      It is a long time since I looked at IBH's translation of Vv.

      However, I can say that, according to Western scholars, only the verses are considered canonical, and that any other explanatory material, including the introductory stories, is commentarial. But this flies in the face of Dhammapala's commentary.

      According to him, Vv-a admits of three parts: the introductory stories as to how the verses originated on one or another deva-tour on the part of Mahamoggalana, the exchange of conversation recorded in the verses themselves, and Dhammapala's cty on those verses.

      Moreover, since the Buddha, at the end of the discourse, summed the whole thing up by repeating the introductory story along with the verses, both are therefore Buddhavacana, unlike his cty on the verses themselves.



      Dhammapala's posiition is therefore that the prose introduction and the verses are both Buddhavacana, whereas the section containing his cty on the verses are not.

      The same is true for the Petavatthu.





      _____

      From: Dhammadarsa <dhammadaso@...>
      To: peter masefield <soi38@...>
      Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 2:09:23 PM
      Subject: FW: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu

      Kind Sir



      Below is a question from the email Pali group I’m in. It’s about I B Horner’s translation of the Vimaanavatthu. I told the questioner, that I’d pass it onto you for your comment seeing as you have done a more recent translation.



      Kind Regards







      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/%7Edhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect = Intelligence




      Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
      Buddhist Monk

      Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
      Wang Noi
      Ayuthaya
      Thailand


      <http://www.vicnet.net.au/%7Edhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa


      mobile:

      +66850941669




      <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

      <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want a signature like this?





      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tharpa
      Sent: Monday, 7 March 2011 2:49 AM
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu





      I only know a smattering of Pali, but I thought that some of the folks
      here could give me a good answer.

      PTS is generally pretty good about distinguishing translations of the
      suttas from the commentaries. However, I have recently started reading
      Vimaanavatthu: Stories of the Mansions, translated by I.B. Horner, and
      it seems like maybe it mixes translations of the suttas and commentaries
      together.

      Firstly, it's subtitled, _Together with excerpts from the frame stories
      from Dhammapala's commentary_.

      Generally, each translated Sutta has a paragraph, and then numbered
      verses. Sometimes the preceding paragraphs contain sentences like, "The
      rest is as described above."

      Is there any clear way of distinguishing the translations of the suttas
      in this book from other material? Can I assume that only the numbered
      verses are from the Suttas, and that the preceding paragraph is always
      non-Sutta?

      --
      May all beings, in or out of the womb, be well, happy and peaceful.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Venerable Dhammadarsa, ... N: Please would you quote this? I cannot find it in the website you direct us to. With respect, Nina. [Non-text portions of this
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 20, 2011
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        Venerable Dhammadarsa,
        Op 11-mrt-2011, om 3:01 heeft Dhammadarsa het volgende geschreven:

        > Please see below for the reply from Dr Peter Masefield.
        -----
        N: Please would you quote this? I cannot find it in the website you
        direct us to.
        With respect,
        Nina.



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tharpachozang
        Dear Bhante, Thank you very much. Below is a copy of my response to Dr. Masefield: Dear Dr. Masefield: Thank you very much for your reply to Ven. Dhammadarsa
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 20, 2011
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          Dear Bhante,

          Thank you very much. Below is a copy of my response to Dr. Masefield:



          Dear Dr. Masefield:

          Thank you very much for your reply to Ven. Dhammadarsa regarding my question on Horner's translation.

          Although I have not finished reading Horner's translation of the Vimaanavatthu, the Buddha seldom appears. In most of them, the Sutta ends with the verses. I have not yet come across any where the Buddha repeats the introductory story.

          However, I have not even completed the Women's Mansions. Perhaps I will see what you mean as I read further.

          I see now that it is not a straight-forward question!

          Metta,

          Tharpa Roberts

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Dhammadarsa <dhammadaso@...> wrote:
          >
          > Please see below for the reply from Dr Peter Masefield.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect = Intelligence
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
          > Buddhist Monk
          >
          > Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
          > Wang Noi
          > Ayuthaya
          > Thailand
          >
          >
          > <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa
          >
          >
          > mobile:
          >
          > +66850941669
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info
          >
          > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want a signature like this?
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > From: peter masefield [mailto:soi38@...]
          > Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2011 3:29 AM
          > To: Dhammadarsa
          > Subject: Re: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu
          >
          >
          >
          > It is a long time since I looked at IBH's translation of Vv.
          >
          > However, I can say that, according to Western scholars, only the verses are considered canonical, and that any other explanatory material, including the introductory stories, is commentarial. But this flies in the face of Dhammapala's commentary.
          >
          > According to him, Vv-a admits of three parts: the introductory stories as to how the verses originated on one or another deva-tour on the part of Mahamoggalana, the exchange of conversation recorded in the verses themselves, and Dhammapala's cty on those verses.
          >
          > Moreover, since the Buddha, at the end of the discourse, summed the whole thing up by repeating the introductory story along with the verses, both are therefore Buddhavacana, unlike his cty on the verses themselves.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dhammapala's posiition is therefore that the prose introduction and the verses are both Buddhavacana, whereas the section containing his cty on the verses are not.
          >
          > The same is true for the Petavatthu.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: Dhammadarsa <dhammadaso@...>
          > To: peter masefield <soi38@...>
          > Sent: Wed, March 9, 2011 2:09:23 PM
          > Subject: FW: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu
          >
          > Kind Sir
          >
          >
          >
          > Below is a question from the email Pali group I’m in. It’s about I B Horner’s translation of the Vimaanavatthu. I told the questioner, that I’d pass it onto you for your comment seeing as you have done a more recent translation.
          >
          >
          >
          > Kind Regards
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > <http://www.vicnet.net.au/%7Edhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect = Intelligence
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
          > Buddhist Monk
          >
          > Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
          > Wang Noi
          > Ayuthaya
          > Thailand
          >
          >
          > <http://www.vicnet.net.au/%7Edhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa
          >
          >
          > mobile:
          >
          > +66850941669
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info
          >
          > <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want a signature like this?
        • Dhammadarsa
          Kind Nina Unfortunately there was a mix up. Yahoo converts my picture and colour signature file to text and links which appears quite confusing. You have to
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 21, 2011
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            Kind Nina



            Unfortunately there was a mix up. Yahoo converts my picture and colour
            signature file to text and links which appears quite confusing.



            You have to scroll past all that to get to the email I forwarded from Dr
            Peter Masefield. See after the words "Want a signature like this?"



            Kind Regards







            <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> Integrating Emotion and Intellect =
            Intelligence




            Dhammadarsa [Darsa] Bhikkhu
            Buddhist Monk

            Mahachulalongkornrajavidyalaya University
            Wang Noi
            Ayuthaya
            Thailand


            <http://www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa> www.vicnet.net.au/~dhammadarsa


            mobile:

            +66850941669





            <https://www.plaxo.com/add_me?u=210453914412&src=client_sig_212_1_card_join&
            invite=1&lang=en> Always have my latest info

            <http://www.plaxo.com/signature?src=client_sig_212_1_card_sig&lang=en> Want
            a signature like this?





            From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Nina
            van Gorkom
            Sent: Sunday, 20 March 2011 10:36 PM
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Vimaanavatthu





            Venerable Dhammadarsa,
            Op 11-mrt-2011, om 3:01 heeft Dhammadarsa het volgende geschreven:

            > Please see below for the reply from Dr Peter Masefield.
            -----
            N: Please would you quote this? I cannot find it in the website you
            direct us to.
            With respect,
            Nina.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Bikkhu Dhammadarsa, Thank you for the trouble. I am not good at searching in links. With respect, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 27, 2011
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              Venerable Bikkhu Dhammadarsa,
              Thank you for the trouble. I am not good at searching in links.
              With respect,
              Nina.
              Op 21-mrt-2011, om 9:35 heeft Dhammadarsa het volgende geschreven:
              >
              > Unfortunately there was a mix up. Yahoo converts my picture and colour
              > signature file to text and links which appears quite confusing.
              >
              > You have to scroll past all that to get to the email I forwarded
              > from Dr
              > Peter Masefield. See after the words "Want a signature like this?"
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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