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Re: upanisasampanna

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  • Dhivan Thomas Jones
    Hi Jayarava, When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
      Hi Jayarava,

      "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

      So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.

      Now in English:

      "Mindfulness and full awareness being present, for someone completely mindful and fully aware, the conditions for shame and fear of wrongdoing are fully present."

      Dhivan x
    • palistudent
      Dear Jayarava and others, I think it can be interpreted more like this: When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
        Dear Jayarava and others,

        I think it can be interpreted more like this:

        "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are possessed of their proximate cause."

        The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

        With metta,
        John
        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "jayarava" <jayarava@...> wrote:
        >
        > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
        >
        > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
        >
        > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
        >
        > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
        >
        > Thanks
        > Jayarava
        >
      • jayarava
        Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
          Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:

          "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

          'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'

          This makes sense of it I think.

          John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.

          There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.

          Thanks again
          Jayarava
        • James Whelan
          Dear John, The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
            Dear John,



            The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
            structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
            to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
            'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



            With metta,

            James



            From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            palistudent
            Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna





            Dear Jayarava and others,

            I think it can be interpreted more like this:

            "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
            endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
            possessed of their proximate cause."

            The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
            and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
            moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
            faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

            With metta,
            John
            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
            <jayarava@...> wrote:
            >
            > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
            >
            > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
            upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
            >
            > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
            mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
            >
            > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
            >
            > Thanks
            > Jayarava
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • jayarava
            ... One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax: Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "James Whelan" <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
              > To say that an effect 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least)
              > something of a novel idea.

              One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax:
              Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m vadaami, no anupanisa.m. Kaa ca, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa upanisaa? ‘Viraago’tissa vacaniiya.m.

              "I say that liberation has a precondition, and is not without a precondition. And what, monks, is the precondition of liberation? I would say it is dispassion."

              So AN 8.81 says that vimutti is upanisasampanna 'endowed with a precondition'. I.e. a precondition for the arising of liberation has been identified.

              I'm very doubtful about using 'cause' rather than 'condition' in this context. Upanisaa, like its synonym nidaana, suggests 'resting on'. As does the etymology of pa.ticca 'grounded on, going back to'.

              If you do know of a text which clearly says that "x causes y" with an active verb, I would be very interested to read it.

              Best Wishes
              Jayarava
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear James and John, If one takes sampanna in the sense of perfected and upanisa in the CPD definition of condition or basis ,  then it makes sense, that
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
                Dear James and John,

                If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),

                Metta, Bryan



                --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:

                From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
















                 









                Dear John,



                The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the

                structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means

                to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect

                'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



                With metta,



                James



                From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

                palistudent

                Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22

                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com

                Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna



                Dear Jayarava and others,



                I think it can be interpreted more like this:



                "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one

                endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are

                possessed of their proximate cause."



                The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame

                and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and

                moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense

                faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.



                With metta,

                John

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"

                <jayarava@...> wrote:

                >

                > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

                >

                > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

                upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

                >

                > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is

                mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

                >

                > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

                >

                > Thanks

                > Jayarava

                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Wayne
                When and where does the beginners class start? metta, Wayne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
                  When and where does the beginners class start?
















                  metta,
                  Wayne

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • palistudent
                  Dear James and Bryan, Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur. Or,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
                    Dear James and Bryan,

                    Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur.
                    Or, put another way, X 'has' the conditions for it's existence.

                    With metta,
                    John
                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear James and John,
                    >
                    > If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),
                    >
                    > Metta, Bryan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                    > Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    > Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
                    >
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                    > Dear John,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
                    >
                    > structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
                    >
                    > to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
                    >
                    > 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > With metta,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > James
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    >
                    > palistudent
                    >
                    > Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
                    >
                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Jayarava and others,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I think it can be interpreted more like this:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
                    >
                    > endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
                    >
                    > possessed of their proximate cause."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
                    >
                    > and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
                    >
                    > moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
                    >
                    > faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > With metta,
                    >
                    > John
                    >
                    > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
                    >
                    > <jayarava@> wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
                    >
                    > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
                    >
                    > mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    > > Thanks
                    >
                    > > Jayarava
                    >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Wayne, ... N: Welcome here. I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, Grasje : For people who are just starting with pali the pali
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
                      Dear Wayne,
                      Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                      > When and where does the beginners class start?
                      -------
                      N: Welcome here.
                      I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":
                      For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://
                      www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would
                      recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the
                      primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the
                      beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives
                      you more opportunity to practice the declensions.

                      ------

                      As soon as you get the hang of reading (sooner as you think! Try it
                      at lesson 7 from Narada thera's course) it is very worthwile to
                      install the pali text reader: http://sourceforge.net/projects/
                      digitalpali/ Then study the anguttara nikaya. The repeated frases
                      make it a very good start.

                      -----

                      On http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm the Dhammapada is
                      available in complete (explained) translation and sound files. Klick
                      Pali lessons (on the left), klick 3, readings in pali text (on the
                      right). The Dhammapada is poetic. The short sentences are much more
                      difficult to translate and understand as the long ones from the
                      Anguttara Nikaya. But this concise summary of the dhamma is very
                      motivating to study, the translations, explanations and the
                      soundfiles are very helpful.

                      (end letter Ria)

                      ------

                      Use the home page of this group. [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net

                      On top is a green line with drop down menues, and put the cursor on
                      the second part of this line for Pali.

                      Success with your study. You can always ask questions.

                      Nina.







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Bryan Levman
                      Dear Dhivan, Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
                        Dear Dhivan,

                        Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which would make it a tatpurusa (usu. an instrumental tatpurusa), in my opinion,

                        Metta, Bryan



                        --- On Sun, 3/20/11, jayarava <jayarava@...> wrote:

                        From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
                        Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                        Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:37 AM
















                         









                        Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:



                        "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"



                        'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'



                        This makes sense of it I think.



                        John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.



                        There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.



                        Thanks again

                        Jayarava





























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dhivan Thomas Jones
                        Dear Bryan, Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me. Dhivan
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 22, 2011
                          Dear Bryan,

                          Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me.

                          Dhivan
                        • Wayne
                          Nina, Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera? Wayne ... From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member To:
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
                            Nina,
                            Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?
                            Wayne

                            --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 8:32 AM
















                             









                            Dear Wayne,

                            Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:



                            > When and where does the beginners class start?

                            -------

                            N: Welcome here.

                            I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":

                            For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://

                            www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would

                            recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the

                            primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the

                            beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives

                            you more opportunity to practice the declensions.



                            ------



















                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Nina van Gorkom
                            Dear Wayne, It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our moderator, will help you, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 9, 2011
                              Dear Wayne,
                              It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our
                              moderator, will help you,
                              Nina.
                              Op 30-mrt-2011, om 8:09 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                              > Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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