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Re: [Pali] upanisasampanna

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Jayarave and Bryan, ... N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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      Dear Jayarave and Bryan,

      > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
      > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
      -----
      N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or
      condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then
      for the person who is endowed with sati-sampaja~n~na, this is being
      endowed with the condition (upanisaa) for shame and fear of blame.
      The construction is still difficult.
      Nina.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Nina, Thanks for your suggetion. I guess the problem is, why is upaniasampannam in the neuter? It must be because it s in agreement with hirotappam which
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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        Dear Nina,

        Thanks for your suggetion.

        I guess the problem is, why is upaniasampannam in the neuter? It must be because it's in agreement with hirotappam which is neuter, so the translation seems to go the other way - for a person endowed with mindfulness, there is shame and fear of blame which is endowed with this condition (upanisasampaanam) - in that case "endowed with this condition" seems to refer back to mindfulness, i. e. someone who has shame and fear of blame is very mindful lest he/she does anything wrong.

        As you say, it's a difficult construction,

        Metta, Bryan

        --- On Sat, 3/19/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        Subject: Re: [Pali] upanisasampanna
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 3:12 PM
















         









        Dear Jayarave and Bryan,



        > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

        > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

        -----

        N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or

        condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then

        for the person who is endowed with sati-sampaja~n~na, this is being

        endowed with the condition (upanisaa) for shame and fear of blame.

        The construction is still difficult.

        Nina.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • James Whelan
        For what it s worth, here is my tentative suggestion. Upanisa here could have the meaning proximity, being close to something. Sampanna means arisen,
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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          For what it's worth, here is my tentative suggestion.



          Upanisa here could have the meaning proximity, being close to something.

          Sampanna means arisen, engendered.



          Upanisa-sampanna = born of proximity, engendered by reason of proximity



          upanisa-sampannam hirottappam = the shame and fear of wrongdoing, engendered
          by proximity.



          The whole phrase would then mean: There being mindfulness and clear
          awareness, there arises in him who has mindfulness and clear awareness the
          proximity-engendered shame and fear of wrongdoing.



          Proximity to what?



          'Proximity-engendered' here would mean that once mindfulness and clear
          awareness have arisen in a person, then the effect that that has on his mind
          - other mental formations arising in the presence or 'proximity' of that
          mindfulness - is that the hirottappam arises as well.



          Metta



          James Whelan





          From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          jayarava
          Sent: 15 March 2011 18:14
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Pali] upanisasampanna





          Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

          satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
          upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

          Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness
          and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

          The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

          Thanks
          Jayarava





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dhivan Thomas Jones
          Hi Jayarava, When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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            Hi Jayarava,

            "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

            So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.

            Now in English:

            "Mindfulness and full awareness being present, for someone completely mindful and fully aware, the conditions for shame and fear of wrongdoing are fully present."

            Dhivan x
          • palistudent
            Dear Jayarava and others, I think it can be interpreted more like this: When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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              Dear Jayarava and others,

              I think it can be interpreted more like this:

              "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are possessed of their proximate cause."

              The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

              With metta,
              John
              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "jayarava" <jayarava@...> wrote:
              >
              > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
              >
              > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
              >
              > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
              >
              > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
              >
              > Thanks
              > Jayarava
              >
            • jayarava
              Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:

                "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

                'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'

                This makes sense of it I think.

                John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.

                There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.

                Thanks again
                Jayarava
              • James Whelan
                Dear John, The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                  Dear John,



                  The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
                  structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
                  to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
                  'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



                  With metta,

                  James



                  From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  palistudent
                  Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna





                  Dear Jayarava and others,

                  I think it can be interpreted more like this:

                  "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
                  endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
                  possessed of their proximate cause."

                  The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
                  and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
                  moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
                  faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

                  With metta,
                  John
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
                  <jayarava@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                  >
                  > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
                  upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                  >
                  > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
                  mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                  >
                  > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Jayarava
                  >





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jayarava
                  ... One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax: Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "James Whelan" <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
                    > To say that an effect 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least)
                    > something of a novel idea.

                    One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax:
                    Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m vadaami, no anupanisa.m. Kaa ca, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa upanisaa? ‘Viraago’tissa vacaniiya.m.

                    "I say that liberation has a precondition, and is not without a precondition. And what, monks, is the precondition of liberation? I would say it is dispassion."

                    So AN 8.81 says that vimutti is upanisasampanna 'endowed with a precondition'. I.e. a precondition for the arising of liberation has been identified.

                    I'm very doubtful about using 'cause' rather than 'condition' in this context. Upanisaa, like its synonym nidaana, suggests 'resting on'. As does the etymology of pa.ticca 'grounded on, going back to'.

                    If you do know of a text which clearly says that "x causes y" with an active verb, I would be very interested to read it.

                    Best Wishes
                    Jayarava
                  • Bryan Levman
                    Dear James and John, If one takes sampanna in the sense of perfected and upanisa in the CPD definition of condition or basis ,  then it makes sense, that
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                      Dear James and John,

                      If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),

                      Metta, Bryan



                      --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:

                      From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                      Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
















                       









                      Dear John,



                      The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the

                      structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means

                      to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect

                      'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



                      With metta,



                      James



                      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

                      palistudent

                      Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22

                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com

                      Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna



                      Dear Jayarava and others,



                      I think it can be interpreted more like this:



                      "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one

                      endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are

                      possessed of their proximate cause."



                      The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame

                      and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and

                      moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense

                      faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.



                      With metta,

                      John

                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"

                      <jayarava@...> wrote:

                      >

                      > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

                      >

                      > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

                      upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

                      >

                      > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is

                      mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

                      >

                      > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

                      >

                      > Thanks

                      > Jayarava

                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Wayne
                      When and where does the beginners class start? metta, Wayne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                        When and where does the beginners class start?
















                        metta,
                        Wayne

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • palistudent
                        Dear James and Bryan, Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur. Or,
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                          Dear James and Bryan,

                          Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur.
                          Or, put another way, X 'has' the conditions for it's existence.

                          With metta,
                          John
                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear James and John,
                          >
                          > If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),
                          >
                          > Metta, Bryan
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                          > Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                          > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          > Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
                          >
                          >
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                          > Dear John,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
                          >
                          > structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
                          >
                          > to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
                          >
                          > 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > With metta,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > James
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          >
                          > palistudent
                          >
                          > Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
                          >
                          > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          > Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Jayarava and others,
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I think it can be interpreted more like this:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
                          >
                          > endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
                          >
                          > possessed of their proximate cause."
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
                          >
                          > and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
                          >
                          > moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
                          >
                          > faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > With metta,
                          >
                          > John
                          >
                          > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
                          >
                          > <jayarava@> wrote:
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
                          >
                          > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
                          >
                          > mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          > > Thanks
                          >
                          > > Jayarava
                          >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Wayne, ... N: Welcome here. I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, Grasje : For people who are just starting with pali the pali
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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                            Dear Wayne,
                            Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                            > When and where does the beginners class start?
                            -------
                            N: Welcome here.
                            I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":
                            For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://
                            www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would
                            recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the
                            primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the
                            beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives
                            you more opportunity to practice the declensions.

                            ------

                            As soon as you get the hang of reading (sooner as you think! Try it
                            at lesson 7 from Narada thera's course) it is very worthwile to
                            install the pali text reader: http://sourceforge.net/projects/
                            digitalpali/ Then study the anguttara nikaya. The repeated frases
                            make it a very good start.

                            -----

                            On http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm the Dhammapada is
                            available in complete (explained) translation and sound files. Klick
                            Pali lessons (on the left), klick 3, readings in pali text (on the
                            right). The Dhammapada is poetic. The short sentences are much more
                            difficult to translate and understand as the long ones from the
                            Anguttara Nikaya. But this concise summary of the dhamma is very
                            motivating to study, the translations, explanations and the
                            soundfiles are very helpful.

                            (end letter Ria)

                            ------

                            Use the home page of this group. [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net

                            On top is a green line with drop down menues, and put the cursor on
                            the second part of this line for Pali.

                            Success with your study. You can always ask questions.

                            Nina.







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bryan Levman
                            Dear Dhivan, Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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                              Dear Dhivan,

                              Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which would make it a tatpurusa (usu. an instrumental tatpurusa), in my opinion,

                              Metta, Bryan



                              --- On Sun, 3/20/11, jayarava <jayarava@...> wrote:

                              From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
                              Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:37 AM
















                               









                              Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:



                              "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"



                              'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'



                              This makes sense of it I think.



                              John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.



                              There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.



                              Thanks again

                              Jayarava





























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Dhivan Thomas Jones
                              Dear Bryan, Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me. Dhivan
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 22, 2011
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                                Dear Bryan,

                                Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me.

                                Dhivan
                              • Wayne
                                Nina, Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera? Wayne ... From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member To:
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
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                                  Nina,
                                  Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?
                                  Wayne

                                  --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                                  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 8:32 AM
















                                   









                                  Dear Wayne,

                                  Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:



                                  > When and where does the beginners class start?

                                  -------

                                  N: Welcome here.

                                  I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":

                                  For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://

                                  www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would

                                  recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the

                                  primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the

                                  beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives

                                  you more opportunity to practice the declensions.



                                  ------



















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Nina van Gorkom
                                  Dear Wayne, It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our moderator, will help you, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 9, 2011
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                                    Dear Wayne,
                                    It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our
                                    moderator, will help you,
                                    Nina.
                                    Op 30-mrt-2011, om 8:09 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                                    > Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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