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upanisasampanna

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  • jayarava
    Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81? satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
    Message 1 of 18 , Mar 15, 2011
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      Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

      satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

      Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

      The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

      Thanks
      Jayarava
    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Jayarava Structurally it appears to be a loc. absolute ( When there is mindfulness and self possession , satisampaja~n~ne sati) followed by a statement
      Message 2 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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        Dear Jayarava

        Structurally it appears to be a loc. absolute ("When there is mindfulness and self possession", satisampaja~n~ne sati) followed by a statement about what the person endowed with mindfulness and self possession (satisampaja~n~nasampannassa, genitive) possesses - i. e. hirottappam and upanisasampannam (lit: for the person endowed with.... there is (hoti)... upanisa... and hiro...).

        hirottappam means "shame and fear of sin", but I'm not sure about upanisasampannam. On the surface it means "endowed with the upanisaa quality" but I'm not sure what
        upanisaa means in this case. If it comes from upa + ni + sad, then it would mean "endowed with the secret doctrine" which may or may not fit the context. If it comes from upa + ni + "sri, then it means "endowed with dependence/support (on/of
        the doctrine?)..." which doesn't sound right. Per the CPD it seems to mean "endowed with attentiveness" (s. v. upanisaa)

        Hope that helps, at least with the structure, - if anyone knows the meaning of the compound upanisasampanna, I would like to hear it,

        Metta, Bryan

        --- On Tue, 3/15/11, jayarava <jayarava@...> wrote:

        From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
        Subject: [Pali] upanisasampanna
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 6:13 PM
















         









        Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?



        satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.



        Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"



        The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.



        Thanks

        Jayarava





























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Jayarave and Bryan, ... N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then
        Message 3 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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          Dear Jayarave and Bryan,

          > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
          > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
          -----
          N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or
          condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then
          for the person who is endowed with sati-sampaja~n~na, this is being
          endowed with the condition (upanisaa) for shame and fear of blame.
          The construction is still difficult.
          Nina.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bryan Levman
          Dear Nina, Thanks for your suggetion. I guess the problem is, why is upaniasampannam in the neuter? It must be because it s in agreement with hirotappam which
          Message 4 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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            Dear Nina,

            Thanks for your suggetion.

            I guess the problem is, why is upaniasampannam in the neuter? It must be because it's in agreement with hirotappam which is neuter, so the translation seems to go the other way - for a person endowed with mindfulness, there is shame and fear of blame which is endowed with this condition (upanisasampaanam) - in that case "endowed with this condition" seems to refer back to mindfulness, i. e. someone who has shame and fear of blame is very mindful lest he/she does anything wrong.

            As you say, it's a difficult construction,

            Metta, Bryan

            --- On Sat, 3/19/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
            Subject: Re: [Pali] upanisasampanna
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Received: Saturday, March 19, 2011, 3:12 PM
















             









            Dear Jayarave and Bryan,



            > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

            > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

            -----

            N: I just have a try. PED: upanisaa can mean: means, cause or

            condition. When there is sati-sampaja~n~na (sati and pa~n~naa), then

            for the person who is endowed with sati-sampaja~n~na, this is being

            endowed with the condition (upanisaa) for shame and fear of blame.

            The construction is still difficult.

            Nina.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James Whelan
            For what it s worth, here is my tentative suggestion. Upanisa here could have the meaning proximity, being close to something. Sampanna means arisen,
            Message 5 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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              For what it's worth, here is my tentative suggestion.



              Upanisa here could have the meaning proximity, being close to something.

              Sampanna means arisen, engendered.



              Upanisa-sampanna = born of proximity, engendered by reason of proximity



              upanisa-sampannam hirottappam = the shame and fear of wrongdoing, engendered
              by proximity.



              The whole phrase would then mean: There being mindfulness and clear
              awareness, there arises in him who has mindfulness and clear awareness the
              proximity-engendered shame and fear of wrongdoing.



              Proximity to what?



              'Proximity-engendered' here would mean that once mindfulness and clear
              awareness have arisen in a person, then the effect that that has on his mind
              - other mental formations arising in the presence or 'proximity' of that
              mindfulness - is that the hirottappam arises as well.



              Metta



              James Whelan





              From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              jayarava
              Sent: 15 March 2011 18:14
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [Pali] upanisasampanna





              Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

              satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
              upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

              Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness
              and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

              The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

              Thanks
              Jayarava





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dhivan Thomas Jones
              Hi Jayarava, When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is
              Message 6 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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                Hi Jayarava,

                "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

                So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.

                Now in English:

                "Mindfulness and full awareness being present, for someone completely mindful and fully aware, the conditions for shame and fear of wrongdoing are fully present."

                Dhivan x
              • palistudent
                Dear Jayarava and others, I think it can be interpreted more like this: When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with
                Message 7 of 18 , Mar 19, 2011
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                  Dear Jayarava and others,

                  I think it can be interpreted more like this:

                  "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are possessed of their proximate cause."

                  The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

                  With metta,
                  John
                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "jayarava" <jayarava@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                  >
                  > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                  >
                  > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                  >
                  > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                  >
                  > Thanks
                  > Jayarava
                  >
                • jayarava
                  Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right
                  Message 8 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                    Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:

                    "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"

                    'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'

                    This makes sense of it I think.

                    John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.

                    There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.

                    Thanks again
                    Jayarava
                  • James Whelan
                    Dear John, The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually
                    Message 9 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                      Dear John,



                      The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
                      structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
                      to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
                      'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



                      With metta,

                      James



                      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      palistudent
                      Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna





                      Dear Jayarava and others,

                      I think it can be interpreted more like this:

                      "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
                      endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
                      possessed of their proximate cause."

                      The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
                      and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
                      moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
                      faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.

                      With metta,
                      John
                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
                      <jayarava@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                      >
                      > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
                      upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                      >
                      > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
                      mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                      >
                      > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      > Jayarava
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • jayarava
                      ... One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax: Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m
                      Message 10 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "James Whelan" <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
                        > To say that an effect 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least)
                        > something of a novel idea.

                        One of related texts, the Upanisaa Sutta (SN 12.23), describes the upanisaa sequence in this kind of syntax:
                        Vimuttimpaaha.m, bhikkhave, saupanisa.m vadaami, no anupanisa.m. Kaa ca, bhikkhave, vimuttiyaa upanisaa? ‘Viraago’tissa vacaniiya.m.

                        "I say that liberation has a precondition, and is not without a precondition. And what, monks, is the precondition of liberation? I would say it is dispassion."

                        So AN 8.81 says that vimutti is upanisasampanna 'endowed with a precondition'. I.e. a precondition for the arising of liberation has been identified.

                        I'm very doubtful about using 'cause' rather than 'condition' in this context. Upanisaa, like its synonym nidaana, suggests 'resting on'. As does the etymology of pa.ticca 'grounded on, going back to'.

                        If you do know of a text which clearly says that "x causes y" with an active verb, I would be very interested to read it.

                        Best Wishes
                        Jayarava
                      • Bryan Levman
                        Dear James and John, If one takes sampanna in the sense of perfected and upanisa in the CPD definition of condition or basis ,  then it makes sense, that
                        Message 11 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                          Dear James and John,

                          If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),

                          Metta, Bryan



                          --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:

                          From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                          Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
















                           









                          Dear John,



                          The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the

                          structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means

                          to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect

                          'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.



                          With metta,



                          James



                          From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of

                          palistudent

                          Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22

                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com

                          Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna



                          Dear Jayarava and others,



                          I think it can be interpreted more like this:



                          "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one

                          endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are

                          possessed of their proximate cause."



                          The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame

                          and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and

                          moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense

                          faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.



                          With metta,

                          John

                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"

                          <jayarava@...> wrote:

                          >

                          > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?

                          >

                          > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa

                          upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.

                          >

                          > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is

                          mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"

                          >

                          > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.

                          >

                          > Thanks

                          > Jayarava

                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Wayne
                          When and where does the beginners class start? metta, Wayne [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          Message 12 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                            When and where does the beginners class start?
















                            metta,
                            Wayne

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • palistudent
                            Dear James and Bryan, Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur. Or,
                            Message 13 of 18 , Mar 20, 2011
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                              Dear James and Bryan,

                              Yes, I think that explains it quite well. If a condition or proximate cause for X exists or has been completed, then X can occur.
                              Or, put another way, X 'has' the conditions for it's existence.

                              With metta,
                              John
                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear James and John,
                              >
                              > If one takes sampanna in the sense of "perfected" and upanisa in the CPD definition of "condition" or "basis",  then it makes sense, that hirottappa (and all the other states in the sutta) are perfected because of the previous condition (i. e. in this case mindfulness),
                              >
                              > Metta, Bryan
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- On Sun, 3/20/11, James Whelan <james.whelan5@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: James Whelan <james.whelan5@...>
                              > Subject: RE: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                              > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              > Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:51 AM
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > Dear John,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The translation you give is capable linguistically of being supported by the
                              >
                              > structure of the sentence, but please talk us through what it actually means
                              >
                              > to say that is 'possessed of its proximate cause'. To say that an effect
                              >
                              > 'possesses' its cause is (to me at least) something of a novel idea.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > With metta,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > James
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              >
                              > palistudent
                              >
                              > Sent: 20 March 2011 01:22
                              >
                              > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Dear Jayarava and others,
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I think it can be interpreted more like this:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > "When, bhikkhus, there is mindfulness and clear comprehension, for one
                              >
                              > endowed with mindfulness and clear comprehension, shame and moral dread are
                              >
                              > possessed of their proximate cause."
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > The mindfulness and clear comprehension are the proximate cause for shame
                              >
                              > and moral dread. The sutta then continues along the lines of, shame and
                              >
                              > moral dread are then the proximate cause for restraint of the sense
                              >
                              > faculties, and so on up to the knowledge and vision of liberation.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > With metta,
                              >
                              > John
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Pali%40yahoogroups.com> , "jayarava"
                              >
                              > <jayarava@> wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Could someone help me parse this sentence from AN 8.81?
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > satisampaja~n~ne, bhikkhave, sati satisampaja~n~nasampannassa
                              >
                              > upanisasampanna.m hoti hirottappa.m.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Clearly there is locative absolute with sati/hoti "when there is
                              >
                              > mindfulness and full attention there is shame and moral dread"
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > The two compounds with -sampanna between sati and hoti are puzzling me.
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              > > Thanks
                              >
                              > > Jayarava
                              >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
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                            • Nina van Gorkom
                              Dear Wayne, ... N: Welcome here. I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, Grasje : For people who are just starting with pali the pali
                              Message 14 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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                                Dear Wayne,
                                Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                                > When and where does the beginners class start?
                                -------
                                N: Welcome here.
                                I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":
                                For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://
                                www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would
                                recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the
                                primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the
                                beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives
                                you more opportunity to practice the declensions.

                                ------

                                As soon as you get the hang of reading (sooner as you think! Try it
                                at lesson 7 from Narada thera's course) it is very worthwile to
                                install the pali text reader: http://sourceforge.net/projects/
                                digitalpali/ Then study the anguttara nikaya. The repeated frases
                                make it a very good start.

                                -----

                                On http://buddhism.lib.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/index.htm the Dhammapada is
                                available in complete (explained) translation and sound files. Klick
                                Pali lessons (on the left), klick 3, readings in pali text (on the
                                right). The Dhammapada is poetic. The short sentences are much more
                                difficult to translate and understand as the long ones from the
                                Anguttara Nikaya. But this concise summary of the dhamma is very
                                motivating to study, the translations, explanations and the
                                soundfiles are very helpful.

                                (end letter Ria)

                                ------

                                Use the home page of this group. [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net

                                On top is a green line with drop down menues, and put the cursor on
                                the second part of this line for Pali.

                                Success with your study. You can always ask questions.

                                Nina.







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Bryan Levman
                                Dear Dhivan, Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which
                                Message 15 of 18 , Mar 21, 2011
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                                  Dear Dhivan,

                                  Thanks for the translation which makes sense. A bahuvriihi must end in a noun and -sampanna is an adj. (or past participle to be precise) which would make it a tatpurusa (usu. an instrumental tatpurusa), in my opinion,

                                  Metta, Bryan



                                  --- On Sun, 3/20/11, jayarava <jayarava@...> wrote:

                                  From: jayarava <jayarava@...>
                                  Subject: [Pali] Re: upanisasampanna
                                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                  Received: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 10:37 AM
















                                   









                                  Thanks everyone for the advice, if only to confirm that it was a difficult construction! Dhivan has also replied offline and I think John is on the right track. Dhivan says:



                                  "When there is mindfulness and full attention, for one who is perfected in mindfulness and full attention, there is shame and moral dread which is endowed with a requisite"



                                  'So I take both compounds ending in -sampanna as bahuvrihis, one gen. and one nom., agreeing with the predicate of the main clause (here hirottappa.m, neuter). How to translate -sampanna is always an issue, and here I use two English terms; I'm sure you'll have your own preference.'



                                  This makes sense of it I think.



                                  John. I'm doubtful about following Bhikkhu Bodhi's "proximate cause" for 'upanisaa' as there is some doubt about saying this is causation. It's a condition, rather than a cause. I've been using 'precondition' in my translations.



                                  There does not seem to be any commentary on this term. But it is interesting because it applies the "imasmi.m sati ida.m hoti" locative-absolute construction to lokuttara pa.itcca-samuppaada. This suggests that they are not two different processes, but one with different applications. One that happens automatically and keeps us in sa.msaara, and the other that is invoked by practice (particularly morality) and sends us up and out of sa.msaara.



                                  Thanks again

                                  Jayarava





























                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dhivan Thomas Jones
                                  Dear Bryan, Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me. Dhivan
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Mar 22, 2011
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                                    Dear Bryan,

                                    Tatpurusas rather than bahuvriihis, yes, many thanks for correcting me.

                                    Dhivan
                                  • Wayne
                                    Nina, Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera? Wayne ... From: Nina van Gorkom Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member To:
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Mar 29, 2011
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                                      Nina,
                                      Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?
                                      Wayne

                                      --- On Mon, 3/21/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                                      From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [Pali] New Member
                                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Monday, March 21, 2011, 8:32 AM
















                                       









                                      Dear Wayne,

                                      Op 20-mrt-2011, om 23:50 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:



                                      > When and where does the beginners class start?

                                      -------

                                      N: Welcome here.

                                      I just copy parts of a letter for beginners from Ria Glas, "Grasje":

                                      For people who are just starting with pali the "pali primer" (http://

                                      www.pratyeka.org/Silva/) is easier as Narada thera's course. I would

                                      recommend doing them at the same time, with every two lessons of the

                                      primer followed by one lesson of Narada Thera. Especially in the

                                      beginning they have the same subject to study. Doing them both gives

                                      you more opportunity to practice the declensions.



                                      ------



















                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                      Dear Wayne, It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our moderator, will help you, Nina. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 9, 2011
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                                        Dear Wayne,
                                        It is on the home page, and in case of trouble, Yong Peng, our
                                        moderator, will help you,
                                        Nina.
                                        Op 30-mrt-2011, om 8:09 heeft Wayne het volgende geschreven:

                                        > Where do I acquire the lessons of Narada Thera?



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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