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Re: [Pali] AN2.4 Samacitta Vagga (6)

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Yong Peng, thank you very much. Op 28-feb-2011, om 12:09 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven ... N: PTS has plural: offerings. When reading
    Message 1 of 46 , Mar 1, 2011
      Dear Yong Peng,

      thank you very much.
      Op 28-feb-2011, om 12:09 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven
      >
      > "kati nu kho, bhante, loke dakkhi.neyyaa, kattha ca daana.m
      > daatabba"nti?
      > how many indeed / venerable sir / in world / worthy of offering /
      > where / and / offering / should be given
      > "How many indeed, sir, in the world (are) worthy of offering, and
      > where should the offering be given?"
      ---------
      N: PTS has plural: offerings. When reading offering one may have
      misunderstandings and think of the active participle offering, thus,
      worthy to offer. Offerings in plural indicates that it is a
      substantive. Someone who is worthy of it receives it.
      --------
      > Y.P.:
      > Ida.m vatvaana sugato athaapara.m etadavoca satthaa -
      >
      > Having thus spoken, the Exalted One, the teacher, now said this
      > other [the following] -
      ------
      N: Instead of: this other: PTS: he added. Apara.m indicates an addition.
      -------
      > "Sekho asekho ca imasmi.m loke,
      >
      > "In this world, the master* and the disciple,
      >
      > * I have used a little poetic license here.
      ------
      N: They are all disciples, followers of the Buddha. Could I suggest:
      the learner and the adept?
      ------
      Nina.


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ven. Sobhana, thank you. The name is Yong Peng. It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate
      Message 46 of 46 , Jul 4, 2011
        Dear Ven. Sobhana,

        thank you. The name is Yong Peng.

        It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate on point 1(a). This is exactly what the commentary says:

        saadhuuti aayaacanatthe nipaato.

        First, I annotate it for the beginners:

        saadhuuti aayaacan'atthe nipaato.

        Now, translating the commentary:

        'saadhu' (is) a particle for asking*, adhortation*, addressing*.

        * see PTS PED - aayaacana.

        Further explanation:

        In Pali, nipaata includes conjunctions and adverbs. So, we can translate 'saadhu' as 'please'.

        Finally, I make an attempt with the original sentence to show what I mean:

        Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
        please / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable / Sariputta /
        there-let...approach / out of compassion
        Please, sir, may the Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'

        There is a tendency for some, as I pointed in a recent post, to rationalise the Pali using an existing English translation. I find it uncomprehensible when given our level of Pali understanding, we can do a slightly better job. In fact, I also see lurking dangers in doing so. I do not intend to elaborate on this.

        As a PTS sponsoring member, I am also using F.L.Woodward's translation as a reference in this exercise, i.e., from AN1.1.1, another point which I have mentioned several times too. However, that does not mean it is my only reference, or that I have to reproduce directly from PTS or any other existing works. This "read and follow" mentality is more suitable for someone who only needs an English translation, and does not bother with the original Pali passage, not a Pali student.

        It is in fact much easier for me to type out the PTS translation, than doing extensive referencing on dictionaries, grammars, and cross checking other translations. However, this is not a "typing" exercise for me, and I would rather spend my time doing something more meaningful. Let's make this a good learning opportunity for everyone, so that the time and effort we put in is rewarding.

        Lastly, if you use additional examples in Pali, please bear in mind, it is your responsibility to provide an accurate English translation. Anyone can generate Pali sentences using the appropriate search tool/program.

        I will make this post as a 'landmark' message for the future. Thank you.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, USO wrote:

        Here are some of the meanings of Saadhu from One of the Pali-Myanmar Dictionaries.
        1. "i request you" (aayaacana); "I order you" (aanatti).
        2. o.k., alright(sampa.ticchana)
        3. interjection used to rejoice (anumodana)
        4. good, beautiful (sunadara, bhaddaka, sobhana)
        5. well (adverb)
        6.pure (parisuddha)
        7. wholesome action...

        Here, we take the first meaning in cases like the one you are discussing. The commentaries also explain as 'aayaacana'. In Burma, we explain like this: yena aayasmaa saariputto (atthi) tena upasa'nkamatu. 'Tena' here is used in the sense of second case: 'to', 'towards'. Here, it will be 'aayaacama' for a group of deities are requesting the Buddha.
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