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how best to translate "panassa"?

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  • Larry Rosenfeld
    Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus - In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the SLTP at
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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      Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

      In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
      SLTP at
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
      the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

      Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
      panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

      What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
      dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
      or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

      To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
      translations of the above sentence fragment:

      - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
      that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
      - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
      mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
      - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
      - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
      - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
      body' is maintained ...."
      - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
      body!'"
      - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
      'there is body' is present to him ...."

      Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
      BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
      this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
      (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
      suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
      and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
      context.

      As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
      With metta,
      Larry


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sakyaputtiyo
      Yeah Jim, you are right: the final i vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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        Yeah Jim,
        you are right: the final 'i' vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that a.t.thahi has third case ending, the 'h' is not an inserted letter for euphony. If the term would be 'a.t.thaakaarehi', the 'hi' has been dropped - this is a samaasa.

        For all:
        If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows. Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will help you.

        May all beings be well and happy
        Bhante Sobhana
      • Rosa Grau
        Hi Larry, It is actually vā pana or else (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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          Hi Larry,

          It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but sandhi.

          Rosa
          _____

          From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosenfeld
          Sent: dilluns, 24 / gener / 2011 02:51
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [Pali] how best to translate "panassa"?




          Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

          In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
          SLTP at
          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
          the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

          Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
          panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

          What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
          dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
          or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

          To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
          translations of the above sentence fragment:

          - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
          that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
          - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
          mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
          - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
          the thought: 'The body exists'...."
          - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
          the thought: 'The body exists'...."
          - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
          body' is maintained ...."
          - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
          body!'"
          - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
          'there is body' is present to him ...."

          Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
          BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
          this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
          (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
          suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
          and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
          context.

          As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
          With metta,
          Larry

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Larry, ... N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness is established. Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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            Dear Larry,
            Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

            > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
            > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
            >
            > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
            > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
            > "pana,"
            > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
            --------
            N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
            is established.
            Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
            mindfulness of breathing):
            <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
            mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
            Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
            thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
            woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
            that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
            attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
            attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
            paccupatthita hoti].

            Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.

            This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
            What is the purpose for which it is established?

            Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
            That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
            further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
            uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
            increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.

            For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
            the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
            is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
            [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
            ---------
            Nina.




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bryan Levman
            Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound, Metta, Bryan ... From: Lennart Lopin
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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              Dear Bhante Sobhana,

              Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound,

              Metta, Bryan



              --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...> wrote:

              From: Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...>
              Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Question re: a.t.thahaakaara
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 2:44 PM
















               









              Dear Bhante Sobhana,



              Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",

              par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some

              cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and

              "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's

              context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,



              metta,

              Lennart



              On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:



              >

              >

              > Dear Dhamma friends,

              > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic

              > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

              >

              > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the

              > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians

              > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case

              > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga

              > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

              >

              > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +

              > aakaara

              >

              > May you all be happy and peaceful

              > Bhante Sobhana

              >

              >

              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Larry Rosenfeld
              Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera s translation of the
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful
                response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera's
                translation of the commentaries.

                If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana" plus
                "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                correct? (If not, I apologize for my extended display of ignorance.)

                Thank you so much!
                Larry

                On 1/24/2011 9:03 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                >
                > Dear Larry,
                > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                > >
                > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                > > "pana,"
                > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                > --------
                > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                > is established.
                > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                > mindfulness of breathing):
                > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                > paccupatthita hoti].
                >
                > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                >
                > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                >
                > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                >
                > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                > ---------
                > Nina.
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sakyaputtiyo
                Dear larry, i hope it helps you. As a verb, assa is either similar to hoti or it is in optative. E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa As either sixth or
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                  Dear larry,
                  i hope it helps you.

                  As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.

                  E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa


                  As either sixth or fourth:

                  375. ‘Atthi kaayo’ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya

                  it is consturcted in this manner:

                  375. vaa pana ‘atthi (eva) kaayo’ iti assa sati yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.

                  - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                  - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that' or 'this'.
                  - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.

                  - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it is 'is'.

                  - 'eva' comes from the commentary.

                  Good luck &
                  may you be happy


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Larry,
                  > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                  >
                  > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                  > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                  > >
                  > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                  > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                  > > "pana,"
                  > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                  > --------
                  > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                  > is established.
                  > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                  > mindfulness of breathing):
                  > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                  > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                  > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                  > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                  > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                  > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                  > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                  > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                  > paccupatthita hoti].
                  >
                  > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                  >
                  > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                  > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                  >
                  > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                  > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                  > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                  > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                  > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                  >
                  > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                  > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                  > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                  > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                  > ---------
                  > Nina.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                • Larry Rosenfeld
                  Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you so much! - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                    Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you
                    so much! - Larry

                    On 1/24/2011 6:48 AM, Rosa Grau wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Larry,
                    >
                    > It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him,
                    > his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive
                    > pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear
                    > together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but
                    > sandhi.
                    >
                    > Rosa
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Larry Rosenfeld
                    Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to spread the Dhamma, for
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                      Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and
                      thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to
                      spread the Dhamma, for opening my eyes, with your many gifts. With
                      abiding appreciation, Larry

                      On 1/25/2011 10:52 AM, sakyaputtiyo wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear larry,
                      > i hope it helps you.
                      >
                      > As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.
                      >
                      > E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa
                      >
                      > As either sixth or fourth:
                      >
                      > 375. âEUR~Atthi kaayoâEUR^(TM)ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa
                      > hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya
                      >
                      > it is consturcted in this manner:
                      >
                      > 375. vaa pana âEUR~atthi (eva) kaayoâEUR^(TM) iti assa sati yaavadeva
                      > ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.
                      >
                      > - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be
                      > sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of
                      > the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will
                      > be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to
                      > 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                      > - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that'
                      > or 'this'.
                      > - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with
                      > vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of
                      > 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but
                      > also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.
                      >
                      > - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be
                      > either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it
                      > is 'is'.
                      >
                      > - 'eva' comes from the commentary.
                      >
                      > Good luck &
                      > may you be happy
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Larry, ... N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation. In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I like to
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                        Dear Larry,
                        Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                        > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                        > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                        > plus
                        > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                        > correct?
                        ------
                        N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                        In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                        like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                        the English grammar.
                        Nina.



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                          Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
                          Op 24-jan-2011, om 4:24 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

                          > For all:
                          > If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing
                          > to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows.
                          > Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will
                          > help you.
                          -----
                          N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are
                          engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much time
                          for you. For the busy readers here best would be short notes at a time.
                          With respect,
                          Nina.



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Larry Rosenfeld
                          Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry ... [Non-text portions of
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                            Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so
                            kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry

                            On 1/26/2011 4:25 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Larry,
                            > Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                            >
                            > > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                            > > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                            > > plus
                            > > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                            > > correct?
                            > ------
                            > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                            > In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                            > like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                            > the English grammar.
                            > Nina.
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Larry, this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary? metta, Yong Peng. ... Thank you so
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 29, 2011
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                              Dear Larry,

                              this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary?


                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.

                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Larry Rosenfeld wrote:

                              Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully.

                              > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
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