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Re: [Pali] a.t.thahaakaarehi

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Lennart, ... N: Naama can have two meanings, name and also mental phenomenon, namely citta and cetasika. Also nibbaana is naama, an unconditioned naama.
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 7, 2011
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      Dear Lennart,
      Op 6-jan-2011, om 18:25 heeft Lennart Lopin het volgende geschreven:

      > But now let us see whether there is something wrong in rendering
      > *nàma* by
      > `name' in the case of the term *nàma-råpa*. To begin with, let us
      > turn to
      > the definition of *nàma-råpa* as given by the Venerable *Sàriputta*
      > in the*
      > Sammàdi.t.thisutta* of the *Majjhima Nikàya*.
      -------
      N: Naama can have two meanings, 'name' and also mental phenomenon,
      namely citta and cetasika. Also nibbaana is naama, an unconditioned
      naama.
      We have to look at the context to know in which sense naama is used.

      Naama and ruupa are often translated as name and form, but this seems
      to me confusing.
      Naama and ruupa are paramattha dhammas, ultimate realities. They are
      different from conventional truth such as a table or person. They
      each have their own characteristics that can be directly experienced
      and that cannot be altered. For instance, anger is always anger, even
      if we give it another name. It has its own characteristic. We should
      not cling to the name anger but rather investigate its characteristic
      so that it can be known as non-self, not my anger.
      A name can denote something that is not real in the ultimate sense or
      it can denote a paramattha dhamma. Vipassanaa is being developed
      through direct awareness of naama and ruupa and there is no need to
      lable or name naama and ruupa. Their characteristics are experienced.
      The aim is to directly know their true nature of impermanent, dukkha,
      anattaa.

      -------
      Nina.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Bryan, ... N: Ven. Bodhi translated this sutta and commentary: The discourse on the Root of Existence . BPS.
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 7, 2011
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        Dear Bryan,

        Op 6-jan-2011, om 18:03 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

        > pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~njaanaati. Pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~n~natvaa
        > pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati pa.thaviyaa ma~n~nati pa.thavito ma~n~nati
        > pa.thavi.m me'ti
        > ma~n~nati.
        > Pa.thavi.m abhinandati.
        >
        > which I would translate as
        >
        > �from a perception of �earth� he/she is aware of �earth�. Being
        > aware of earth
        > from the
        > percept, he/she deems the percept �earth�. He/she supposes
        > separation from earth
        > (pa,thavito);
        > he/she imagines �with reference to earth�; he/she thinks of earth
        > as �mine�.
        > He/she delights in earth.
        -------
        N: Ven. Bodhi translated this sutta and commentary: "The discourse on
        the Root of Existence". BPS.
        <Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives (himself as ) earth;
        he conceives (himself) in earth; he conceives (himself apart) from
        earth; he conceives 'earth is mine'...>
        These are actually the four ways of sakkaya di.t.thi pertaining to
        each of the five khandhas: thus, believing himself to be identical
        with the khandhas, as being contained in them, to be independent from
        them, to be their owner.
        ------
        Nina.


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      • Bryan Levman
        Hi Nina, Thanks for this reference. I had not connected this with the four sakkaaya di.t.thi as the grammatical structure is somewhat different. In the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 7, 2011
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          Hi Nina,

          Thanks for this reference. I had not connected this with the four sakkaaya
          di.t.thi as the grammatical structure is somewhat different.

          In the sakkaaya di.t.thi,

          ruupa.m attato samanupassati, ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, attani vaa ruupa.m,
          ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. (MN 1, 300)

          we have genitive, accusative, and two locatives whereas in MN 1 there is an
          accus., locative, ablative and accus. + gen. (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati, pa.thaviyaa
          ma~n~nati, pa.thavito ma~n~nati, pa.thavi.m me'ti ma~n~nati) and no mention of
          the self which is interpolated by Venerable Bodhi in his translation.

          Thanks for pointing out these correspondences to me

          Metta, Bryan




          ________________________________
          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Fri, January 7, 2011 10:22:41 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] a.t.thahaakaarehi

          Dear Bryan,

          Op 6-jan-2011, om 18:03 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

          > pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~njaanaati. Pa.thavi.m pa.thavito sa~n~natvaa
          > pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati pa.thaviyaa ma~n~nati pa.thavito ma~n~nati
          > pa.thavi.m me'ti
          > ma~n~nati.
          > Pa.thavi.m abhinandati.
          >
          > which I would translate as
          >
          > …from a perception of ‘earth’ he/she is aware of ‘earth’. Being
          > aware of earth
          > from the
          > percept, he/she deems the percept ‘earth’. He/she supposes
          > separation from earth
          > (pa,thavito);
          > he/she imagines ‘with reference to earth’; he/she thinks of earth
          > as ‘mine’.
          > He/she delights in earth.
          -------
          N: Ven. Bodhi translated this sutta and commentary: "The discourse on
          the Root of Existence". BPS.
          <Having perceived earth as earth, he conceives (himself as ) earth;
          he conceives (himself) in earth; he conceives (himself apart) from
          earth; he conceives 'earth is mine'...>
          These are actually the four ways of sakkaya di.t.thi pertaining to
          each of the five khandhas: thus, believing himself to be identical
          with the khandhas, as being contained in them, to be independent from
          them, to be their owner.
          ------
          Nina.


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Bryan, ... N You are right about the grammar. This sutta and commentaries deal with several ways of wrongly conceiving phenomena. One may conceive them
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 8, 2011
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            Dear Bryan,
            Op 7-jan-2011, om 17:18 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

            > Thanks for this reference. I had not connected this with the four
            > sakkaaya
            > di.t.thi as the grammatical structure is somewhat different.
            >
            > In the sakkaaya di.t.thi,
            >
            > ruupa.m attato samanupassati, ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, attani
            > vaa ruupa.m,
            > ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. (MN 1, 300)
            >
            > we have genitive, accusative, and two locatives whereas in MN 1
            > there is an
            > accus., locative, ablative and accus. + gen. (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati,
            > pa.thaviyaa
            > ma~n~nati, pa.thavito ma~n~nati, pa.thavi.m me'ti ma~n~nati) and no
            > mention of
            > the self which is interpolated by Venerable Bodhi in his translation.
            ------
            N You are right about the grammar. This sutta and commentaries deal
            with several ways of wrongly conceiving phenomena. One may conceive
            them with craving, with conceit and with wrong view. Ven. Bodhi has a
            long Intro. He translates co. and subco. :
            <He conceives (himself as ) earth (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati)
            Co: Through the three conceivings he conceives "I am earth," "earth
            is mine", "another is earth", "earth belongs to another". ...>
            The subco: <..."I am earth": by this he shows the conceiving of views
            and the conceiving of conceit with an internal object, for this
            phrase implies adherence to a view of self (attaabhinivesa) or I-
            making (aha.mkara)....>
            I did not quote all, it is very long. There are many aspects to
            wrongly conceiving.

            ------
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bryan Levman
            Hi Nina, Thanks very much Nina; I must study the commentary, but I don t believe there s any translation of it, so it s on my list of things to do, Metta,
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 8, 2011
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              Hi Nina,

              Thanks very much Nina; I must study the commentary, but I don't believe there's any translation of it, so it's on my list of things to do,

              Metta, Bryan



              --- On Sat, 1/8/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
              Subject: Re: [Pali] a.t.thahaakaarehi
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Received: Saturday, January 8, 2011, 2:45 PM
















               









              Dear Bryan,

              Op 7-jan-2011, om 17:18 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:



              > Thanks for this reference. I had not connected this with the four

              > sakkaaya

              > di.t.thi as the grammatical structure is somewhat different.

              >

              > In the sakkaaya di.t.thi,

              >

              > ruupa.m attato samanupassati, ruupavanta.m vaa attaana.m, attani

              > vaa ruupa.m,

              > ruupasmi.m vaa attaana.m. (MN 1, 300)

              >

              > we have genitive, accusative, and two locatives whereas in MN 1

              > there is an

              > accus., locative, ablative and accus. + gen. (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati,

              > pa.thaviyaa

              > ma~n~nati, pa.thavito ma~n~nati, pa.thavi.m me'ti ma~n~nati) and no

              > mention of

              > the self which is interpolated by Venerable Bodhi in his translation.

              ------

              N You are right about the grammar. This sutta and commentaries deal

              with several ways of wrongly conceiving phenomena. One may conceive

              them with craving, with conceit and with wrong view. Ven. Bodhi has a

              long Intro. He translates co. and subco. :

              <He conceives (himself as ) earth (pa.thavi.m ma~n~nati)

              Co: Through the three conceivings he conceives "I am earth," "earth

              is mine", "another is earth", "earth belongs to another". ...>

              The subco: <..."I am earth": by this he shows the conceiving of views

              and the conceiving of conceit with an internal object, for this

              phrase implies adherence to a view of self (attaabhinivesa) or I-

              making (aha.mkara)....>

              I did not quote all, it is very long. There are many aspects to

              wrongly conceiving.



              ------

              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Bryan, As mentioned, there is Ven. Bodhi translation of this sutta and commentary: The discourse on the Root of Existence . BPS. But I think only in hard
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 9, 2011
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                Dear Bryan,
                As mentioned, there is Ven. Bodhi translation of this sutta and
                commentary: "The discourse on
                the Root of Existence". BPS. But I think only in hard cover. I found
                this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Publication_Society

                Nina.

                Op 8-jan-2011, om 23:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                > I must study the commentary, but I don't believe there's any
                > translation of it, so it's on my list of things to do,



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Bryan Levman
                Dear Nina, Thanks for the reference. We don t have a copy in the library so I ll have to order it, but judging from his previous work I m sure it s very good,
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 9, 2011
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                  Dear Nina,

                  Thanks for the reference. We don't have a copy in the library so I'll have to order it, but judging from his previous work I'm sure it's very good,

                  Metta, Bryan



                  --- On Sun, 1/9/11, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:

                  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] a.t.thahaakaarehi
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Sunday, January 9, 2011, 9:45 AM
















                   









                  Dear Bryan,

                  As mentioned, there is Ven. Bodhi translation of this sutta and

                  commentary: "The discourse on

                  the Root of Existence". BPS. But I think only in hard cover. I found

                  this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Publication_Society



                  Nina.



                  Op 8-jan-2011, om 23:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:



                  > I must study the commentary, but I don't believe there's any

                  > translation of it, so it's on my list of things to do,



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Randy Graves
                  I believe it s the fourth book at http://www.bps.lk/translationsfrompali.asp (BP-210S) also at
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 10, 2011
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                    I believe it's the fourth book at
                    http://www.bps.lk/translationsfrompali.asp (BP-210S)
                    also at
                    http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&id=Mia6JAaSb0AC#v=onepage&q&f=false

                    Randy Graves

                    On 1/9/2011 1:45 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Bryan,
                    > As mentioned, there is Ven. Bodhi translation of this sutta and
                    > commentary: "The discourse on
                    > the Root of Existence". BPS. But I think only in hard cover. I found
                    > this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Publication_Society
                    >
                    > Nina.
                    >
                    > Op 8-jan-2011, om 23:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:
                    >
                    > > I must study the commentary, but I don't believe there's any
                    > > translation of it, so it's on my list of things to do,
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Bryan Levman
                    Dear Randy and Nina, Thank you - I have found the book and ordered it from the Buddhist Publication Society, Metta, Bryan ... From: Randy Graves
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 11, 2011
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                      Dear Randy and Nina,

                      Thank you - I have found the book and ordered it from the Buddhist Publication Society,

                      Metta, Bryan



                      --- On Mon, 1/10/11, Randy Graves <rwgraves@...> wrote:

                      From: Randy Graves <rwgraves@...>
                      Subject: Re: [Pali] a.t.thahaakaarehi
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Cc: "Nina van Gorkom" <vangorko@...>
                      Received: Monday, January 10, 2011, 5:12 PM
















                       









                      I believe it's the fourth book at

                      http://www.bps.lk/translationsfrompali.asp (BP-210S)

                      also at

                      http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&id=Mia6JAaSb0AC#v=onepage&q&f=false



                      Randy Graves



                      On 1/9/2011 1:45 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

                      >

                      > Dear Bryan,

                      > As mentioned, there is Ven. Bodhi translation of this sutta and

                      > commentary: "The discourse on

                      > the Root of Existence". BPS. But I think only in hard cover. I found

                      > this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_Publication_Society

                      >

                      > Nina.

                      >

                      > Op 8-jan-2011, om 23:52 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

                      >

                      > > I must study the commentary, but I don't believe there's any

                      > > translation of it, so it's on my list of things to do,

                      >

                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >

                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























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