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Re: [Pali] Question re: a.t.thahaakaara

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Bryan, ... N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: Clinging to the five khandhas in eight ways . akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
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      Dear Bryan,
      Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

      > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
      > also in
      > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
      > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
      >
      > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
      > (?)
      > pati.t.thitaa.
      ---------
      N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
      eight ways'.
      akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
      words a.t.tha and aakaara.

      ------
      Nina.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bryan Levman
      Thanks Nina and Lennart, There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
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        Thanks Nina and Lennart,



        There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga,
        Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and yours has pa~nca + tayo =
        a.t.tha). So as Nina has pointed out, it means 8 ways of clinging to the five
        khandhas and the 8 ways are listed immediately afterwards in my translation.

        Thanks very much Nina and Lennart,

        Metta,

        Bryan






        ________________________________
        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 6:21:32 AM
        Subject: Re: [Pali] Question re: a.t.thahaakaara


        Dear Bryan,
        Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

        > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
        > also in
        > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
        > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
        >
        > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
        > (?)
        > pati.t.thitaa.
        ---------
        N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
        eight ways'.
        akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
        words a.t.tha and aakaara.

        ------
        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • sakyaputtiyo
        Dear Dhamma friends, i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 22, 2011
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          Dear Dhamma friends,
          i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

          A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

          If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha + aakaara

          May you all be happy and peaceful
          Bhante Sobhana
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Veberable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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            Veberable Bhante Sobhana,
            Op 22-jan-2011, om 9:53 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

            > According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The
            > commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says
            > a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
            ------
            N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important
            authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana with
            us.
            With respect,
            Nina.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jim Anderson
            Dear Bhante Sobhana, ... I take a.t.thahaakaarehi as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi. The elision of the i at the end of a.t.thahi can be
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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              Dear Bhante Sobhana,

              > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
              > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
              > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
              > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
              > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
              >
              > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
              > aakaara

              I take "a.t.thahaakaarehi" as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi.
              The elision of the 'i' at the end of "a.t.thahi" can be easily accounted for
              by a general sandhi rule in Kaccaayana (Kc 12: saraa sare lopa.m) which
              ordains that vowels are elided before a following vowel. However this is
              only the first of a set of rules dealing with combinations of vowels

              Best wishes,

              Jim
            • Lennart Lopin
              Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs Grammatik des Pali , par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists aṭṭhāhi as a rare side
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",
                par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some
                cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and
                "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's
                context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,

                metta,
                Lennart


                On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:

                >
                >
                > Dear Dhamma friends,
                > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic
                > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
                >
                > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
                > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
                > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
                > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
                > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                >
                > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
                > aakaara
                >
                > May you all be happy and peaceful
                > Bhante Sobhana
                >
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Larry Rosenfeld
                Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus - In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the SLTP at
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                  Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                  In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                  SLTP at
                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                  the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                  Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                  panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                  What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                  dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                  or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                  To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                  translations of the above sentence fragment:

                  - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                  that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                  - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                  mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                  - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                  the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                  - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                  the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                  - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                  body' is maintained ...."
                  - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                  body!'"
                  - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                  'there is body' is present to him ...."

                  Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                  BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                  this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                  (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                  suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                  and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                  context.

                  As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                  With metta,
                  Larry


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • sakyaputtiyo
                  Yeah Jim, you are right: the final i vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                    Yeah Jim,
                    you are right: the final 'i' vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that a.t.thahi has third case ending, the 'h' is not an inserted letter for euphony. If the term would be 'a.t.thaakaarehi', the 'hi' has been dropped - this is a samaasa.

                    For all:
                    If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows. Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will help you.

                    May all beings be well and happy
                    Bhante Sobhana
                  • Rosa Grau
                    Hi Larry, It is actually vā pana or else (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun.
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                      Hi Larry,

                      It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but sandhi.

                      Rosa
                      _____

                      From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosenfeld
                      Sent: dilluns, 24 / gener / 2011 02:51
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [Pali] how best to translate "panassa"?




                      Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                      In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                      SLTP at
                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                      the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                      Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                      panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                      What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                      dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                      or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                      To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                      translations of the above sentence fragment:

                      - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                      that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                      - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                      mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                      - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                      - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                      - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                      body' is maintained ...."
                      - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                      body!'"
                      - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                      'there is body' is present to him ...."

                      Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                      BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                      this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                      (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                      suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                      and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                      context.

                      As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                      With metta,
                      Larry

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Larry, ... N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness is established. Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                        Dear Larry,
                        Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                        > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                        > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                        >
                        > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                        > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                        > "pana,"
                        > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                        --------
                        N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                        is established.
                        Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                        mindfulness of breathing):
                        <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                        mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                        Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                        thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                        woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                        that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                        attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                        attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                        paccupatthita hoti].

                        Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.

                        This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                        What is the purpose for which it is established?

                        Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                        That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                        further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                        uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                        increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.

                        For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                        the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                        is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                        [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                        ---------
                        Nina.




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bryan Levman
                        Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound, Metta, Bryan ... From: Lennart Lopin
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                          Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                          Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound,

                          Metta, Bryan



                          --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...> wrote:

                          From: Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...>
                          Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Question re: a.t.thahaakaara
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Received: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 2:44 PM
















                           









                          Dear Bhante Sobhana,



                          Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",

                          par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some

                          cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and

                          "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's

                          context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,



                          metta,

                          Lennart



                          On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:



                          >

                          >

                          > Dear Dhamma friends,

                          > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic

                          > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

                          >

                          > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the

                          > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians

                          > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case

                          > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga

                          > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

                          >

                          > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +

                          > aakaara

                          >

                          > May you all be happy and peaceful

                          > Bhante Sobhana

                          >

                          >

                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Larry Rosenfeld
                          Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera s translation of the
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                            Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful
                            response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera's
                            translation of the commentaries.

                            If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                            beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana" plus
                            "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                            correct? (If not, I apologize for my extended display of ignorance.)

                            Thank you so much!
                            Larry

                            On 1/24/2011 9:03 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Larry,
                            > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                            >
                            > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                            > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                            > >
                            > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                            > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                            > > "pana,"
                            > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                            > --------
                            > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                            > is established.
                            > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                            > mindfulness of breathing):
                            > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                            > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                            > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                            > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                            > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                            > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                            > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                            > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                            > paccupatthita hoti].
                            >
                            > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                            >
                            > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                            > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                            >
                            > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                            > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                            > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                            > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                            > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                            >
                            > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                            > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                            > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                            > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                            > ---------
                            > Nina.
                            >


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • sakyaputtiyo
                            Dear larry, i hope it helps you. As a verb, assa is either similar to hoti or it is in optative. E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa As either sixth or
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                              Dear larry,
                              i hope it helps you.

                              As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.

                              E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa


                              As either sixth or fourth:

                              375. ‘Atthi kaayo’ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya

                              it is consturcted in this manner:

                              375. vaa pana ‘atthi (eva) kaayo’ iti assa sati yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.

                              - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                              - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that' or 'this'.
                              - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.

                              - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it is 'is'.

                              - 'eva' comes from the commentary.

                              Good luck &
                              may you be happy


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Larry,
                              > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                              >
                              > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                              > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                              > >
                              > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                              > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                              > > "pana,"
                              > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                              > --------
                              > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                              > is established.
                              > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                              > mindfulness of breathing):
                              > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                              > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                              > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                              > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                              > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                              > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                              > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                              > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                              > paccupatthita hoti].
                              >
                              > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                              >
                              > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                              > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                              >
                              > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                              > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                              > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                              > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                              > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                              >
                              > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                              > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                              > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                              > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                              > ---------
                              > Nina.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Larry Rosenfeld
                              Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you so much! - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                                Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you
                                so much! - Larry

                                On 1/24/2011 6:48 AM, Rosa Grau wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Larry,
                                >
                                > It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him,
                                > his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive
                                > pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear
                                > together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but
                                > sandhi.
                                >
                                > Rosa
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Larry Rosenfeld
                                Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to spread the Dhamma, for
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                                  Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and
                                  thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to
                                  spread the Dhamma, for opening my eyes, with your many gifts. With
                                  abiding appreciation, Larry

                                  On 1/25/2011 10:52 AM, sakyaputtiyo wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear larry,
                                  > i hope it helps you.
                                  >
                                  > As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.
                                  >
                                  > E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa
                                  >
                                  > As either sixth or fourth:
                                  >
                                  > 375. âEUR~Atthi kaayoâEUR^(TM)ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa
                                  > hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya
                                  >
                                  > it is consturcted in this manner:
                                  >
                                  > 375. vaa pana âEUR~atthi (eva) kaayoâEUR^(TM) iti assa sati yaavadeva
                                  > ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.
                                  >
                                  > - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be
                                  > sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of
                                  > the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will
                                  > be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to
                                  > 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                                  > - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that'
                                  > or 'this'.
                                  > - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with
                                  > vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of
                                  > 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but
                                  > also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.
                                  >
                                  > - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be
                                  > either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it
                                  > is 'is'.
                                  >
                                  > - 'eva' comes from the commentary.
                                  >
                                  > Good luck &
                                  > may you be happy
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Nina van Gorkom
                                  Dear Larry, ... N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation. In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I like to
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                    Dear Larry,
                                    Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                                    > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                    > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                    > plus
                                    > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                    > correct?
                                    ------
                                    N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                    In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                    like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                    the English grammar.
                                    Nina.



                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                      Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
                                      Op 24-jan-2011, om 4:24 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

                                      > For all:
                                      > If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing
                                      > to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows.
                                      > Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will
                                      > help you.
                                      -----
                                      N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are
                                      engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much time
                                      for you. For the busy readers here best would be short notes at a time.
                                      With respect,
                                      Nina.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Larry Rosenfeld
                                      Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry ... [Non-text portions of
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                        Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so
                                        kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry

                                        On 1/26/2011 4:25 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Larry,
                                        > Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                        >
                                        > > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                        > > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                        > > plus
                                        > > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                        > > correct?
                                        > ------
                                        > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                        > In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                        > like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                        > the English grammar.
                                        > Nina.
                                        >


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Larry, this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary? metta, Yong Peng. ... Thank you so
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 29, 2011
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                                          Dear Larry,

                                          this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary?


                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.

                                          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Larry Rosenfeld wrote:

                                          Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully.

                                          > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
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