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Re: [Pali] Question re: a.t.thahaakaara

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  • Lennart Lopin
    Hi Bryan, Did you see this: Aṭṭhahākārehīti ‘‘apīḷanāyā’’tiādayo *pañca* mettopasaṃhārākārā ‘‘averino hontū’’tiādayo
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 3, 2011
      Hi Bryan,

      Did you see this:

      Aṭṭhahākārehīti ‘‘apīḷanāyā’’tiādayo *pañca* mettopasaṃhārākārā ‘‘averino
      hontū’’tiādayo *tayo *mettopasaṃhārākārāti imehi *aṭṭhahākārehi*. From: (
      Paṭisambhidāmagga-Aṭṭhakathā<http://theravadin.org/canon/s0517a.att.html?s=a%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhah%C4%81k%C4%81rehi>)
      - see also this search
      result<http://theravada.org/Result.aspx?s=a%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhah%C4%81k%C4%81rehi>

      metta,

      Lennart

      On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:

      >
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and also in
      > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
      > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
      >
      > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi (?)
      > pati.t.thitaa. ratto hi raagavasena pati.t.thito hoti, du.t.tho dosavasena,
      >
      > muu.lho mohavasena, paraama.t.tho di.t.thivasena, thaamagato anusayavasena,
      >
      > vinibaddho maanavasena, ani.t.tha"ngato vicikicchaavasena, vikkhepagato
      > uddhaccavasena pati.t.thito hoti.
      >
      > which I have translated as
      >
      > Being established/fixed in what can be expressed (akkheyyasmi.m
      > pati.t.thitaa)
      > means being established by the a.t.thahaakaaras (?) in the five skandhas.
      > One is
      > established as stained because of passion; one is established as corrupt
      > because
      > of hatred and one is foolish/confused because of ignorance, because of
      > views one
      > is attached, because of dormant dispositions one is strong (in them),
      > because of
      > conceit, one is bound (by them), because of doubt one has not attained
      > perfection, because of flurry one is confused.
      >
      > Has anyone seen this compound before (a.t.thahaakaara) and do you know what
      > it
      > means?
      >
      > Thanks for your help,
      >
      > Bryan
      >
      > P. S. ati.t.thitaa is plural as it modfies "sattaa" (beings) in the prior
      > paada
      > of the poem.
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Bryan, ... N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: Clinging to the five khandhas in eight ways . akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
        Dear Bryan,
        Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

        > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
        > also in
        > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
        > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
        >
        > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
        > (?)
        > pati.t.thitaa.
        ---------
        N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
        eight ways'.
        akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
        words a.t.tha and aakaara.

        ------
        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bryan Levman
        Thanks Nina and Lennart, There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
          Thanks Nina and Lennart,



          There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga,
          Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and yours has pa~nca + tayo =
          a.t.tha). So as Nina has pointed out, it means 8 ways of clinging to the five
          khandhas and the 8 ways are listed immediately afterwards in my translation.

          Thanks very much Nina and Lennart,

          Metta,

          Bryan






          ________________________________
          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 6:21:32 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] Question re: a.t.thahaakaara


          Dear Bryan,
          Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

          > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
          > also in
          > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
          > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
          >
          > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
          > (?)
          > pati.t.thitaa.
          ---------
          N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
          eight ways'.
          akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
          words a.t.tha and aakaara.

          ------
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sakyaputtiyo
          Dear Dhamma friends, i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 22, 2011
            Dear Dhamma friends,
            i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

            A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

            If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha + aakaara

            May you all be happy and peaceful
            Bhante Sobhana
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Veberable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
              Veberable Bhante Sobhana,
              Op 22-jan-2011, om 9:53 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

              > According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The
              > commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says
              > a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
              ------
              N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important
              authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana with
              us.
              With respect,
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jim Anderson
              Dear Bhante Sobhana, ... I take a.t.thahaakaarehi as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi. The elision of the i at the end of a.t.thahi can be
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
                Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
                > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
                > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
                > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
                > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                >
                > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
                > aakaara

                I take "a.t.thahaakaarehi" as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi.
                The elision of the 'i' at the end of "a.t.thahi" can be easily accounted for
                by a general sandhi rule in Kaccaayana (Kc 12: saraa sare lopa.m) which
                ordains that vowels are elided before a following vowel. However this is
                only the first of a set of rules dealing with combinations of vowels

                Best wishes,

                Jim
              • Lennart Lopin
                Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs Grammatik des Pali , par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists aṭṭhāhi as a rare side
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
                  Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                  Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",
                  par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some
                  cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and
                  "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's
                  context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,

                  metta,
                  Lennart


                  On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:

                  >
                  >
                  > Dear Dhamma friends,
                  > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic
                  > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
                  >
                  > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
                  > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
                  > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
                  > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
                  > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                  >
                  > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
                  > aakaara
                  >
                  > May you all be happy and peaceful
                  > Bhante Sobhana
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Larry Rosenfeld
                  Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus - In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the SLTP at
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
                    Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                    In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                    SLTP at
                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                    the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                    Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                    panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                    What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                    dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                    or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                    To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                    translations of the above sentence fragment:

                    - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                    that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                    - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                    mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                    - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                    the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                    - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                    the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                    - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                    body' is maintained ...."
                    - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                    body!'"
                    - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                    'there is body' is present to him ...."

                    Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                    BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                    this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                    (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                    suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                    and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                    context.

                    As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                    With metta,
                    Larry


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • sakyaputtiyo
                    Yeah Jim, you are right: the final i vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
                      Yeah Jim,
                      you are right: the final 'i' vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that a.t.thahi has third case ending, the 'h' is not an inserted letter for euphony. If the term would be 'a.t.thaakaarehi', the 'hi' has been dropped - this is a samaasa.

                      For all:
                      If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows. Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will help you.

                      May all beings be well and happy
                      Bhante Sobhana
                    • Rosa Grau
                      Hi Larry, It is actually vā pana or else (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun.
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
                        Hi Larry,

                        It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but sandhi.

                        Rosa
                        _____

                        From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosenfeld
                        Sent: dilluns, 24 / gener / 2011 02:51
                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Pali] how best to translate "panassa"?




                        Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                        In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                        SLTP at
                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                        the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                        Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                        panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                        What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                        dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                        or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                        To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                        translations of the above sentence fragment:

                        - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                        that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                        - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                        mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                        - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                        the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                        - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                        the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                        - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                        body' is maintained ...."
                        - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                        body!'"
                        - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                        'there is body' is present to him ...."

                        Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                        BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                        this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                        (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                        suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                        and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                        context.

                        As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                        With metta,
                        Larry

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Larry, ... N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness is established. Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
                          Dear Larry,
                          Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                          > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                          > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                          >
                          > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                          > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                          > "pana,"
                          > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                          --------
                          N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                          is established.
                          Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                          mindfulness of breathing):
                          <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                          mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                          Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                          thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                          woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                          that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                          attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                          attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                          paccupatthita hoti].

                          Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.

                          This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                          What is the purpose for which it is established?

                          Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                          That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                          further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                          uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                          increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.

                          For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                          the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                          is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                          [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                          ---------
                          Nina.




                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bryan Levman
                          Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound, Metta, Bryan ... From: Lennart Lopin
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
                            Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                            Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound,

                            Metta, Bryan



                            --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...> wrote:

                            From: Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...>
                            Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Question re: a.t.thahaakaara
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Received: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 2:44 PM
















                             









                            Dear Bhante Sobhana,



                            Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",

                            par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some

                            cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and

                            "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's

                            context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,



                            metta,

                            Lennart



                            On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:



                            >

                            >

                            > Dear Dhamma friends,

                            > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic

                            > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

                            >

                            > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the

                            > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians

                            > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case

                            > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga

                            > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

                            >

                            > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +

                            > aakaara

                            >

                            > May you all be happy and peaceful

                            > Bhante Sobhana

                            >

                            >

                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Larry Rosenfeld
                            Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera s translation of the
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
                              Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful
                              response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera's
                              translation of the commentaries.

                              If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                              beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana" plus
                              "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                              correct? (If not, I apologize for my extended display of ignorance.)

                              Thank you so much!
                              Larry

                              On 1/24/2011 9:03 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Larry,
                              > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                              >
                              > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                              > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                              > >
                              > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                              > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                              > > "pana,"
                              > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                              > --------
                              > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                              > is established.
                              > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                              > mindfulness of breathing):
                              > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                              > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                              > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                              > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                              > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                              > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                              > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                              > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                              > paccupatthita hoti].
                              >
                              > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                              >
                              > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                              > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                              >
                              > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                              > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                              > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                              > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                              > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                              >
                              > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                              > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                              > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                              > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                              > ---------
                              > Nina.
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • sakyaputtiyo
                              Dear larry, i hope it helps you. As a verb, assa is either similar to hoti or it is in optative. E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa As either sixth or
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
                                Dear larry,
                                i hope it helps you.

                                As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.

                                E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa


                                As either sixth or fourth:

                                375. ‘Atthi kaayo’ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya

                                it is consturcted in this manner:

                                375. vaa pana ‘atthi (eva) kaayo’ iti assa sati yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.

                                - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                                - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that' or 'this'.
                                - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.

                                - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it is 'is'.

                                - 'eva' comes from the commentary.

                                Good luck &
                                may you be happy


                                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Larry,
                                > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                >
                                > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                                > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                                > >
                                > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                                > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                                > > "pana,"
                                > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                                > --------
                                > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                                > is established.
                                > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                                > mindfulness of breathing):
                                > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                                > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                                > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                                > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                                > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                                > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                                > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                                > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                                > paccupatthita hoti].
                                >
                                > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                                >
                                > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                                > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                                >
                                > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                                > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                                > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                                > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                                > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                                >
                                > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                                > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                                > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                                > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                                > ---------
                                > Nina.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >
                              • Larry Rosenfeld
                                Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you so much! - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
                                  Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you
                                  so much! - Larry

                                  On 1/24/2011 6:48 AM, Rosa Grau wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Larry,
                                  >
                                  > It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him,
                                  > his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive
                                  > pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear
                                  > together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but
                                  > sandhi.
                                  >
                                  > Rosa
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Larry Rosenfeld
                                  Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to spread the Dhamma, for
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
                                    Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and
                                    thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to
                                    spread the Dhamma, for opening my eyes, with your many gifts. With
                                    abiding appreciation, Larry

                                    On 1/25/2011 10:52 AM, sakyaputtiyo wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Dear larry,
                                    > i hope it helps you.
                                    >
                                    > As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.
                                    >
                                    > E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa
                                    >
                                    > As either sixth or fourth:
                                    >
                                    > 375. âEUR~Atthi kaayoâEUR^(TM)ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa
                                    > hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya
                                    >
                                    > it is consturcted in this manner:
                                    >
                                    > 375. vaa pana âEUR~atthi (eva) kaayoâEUR^(TM) iti assa sati yaavadeva
                                    > ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.
                                    >
                                    > - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be
                                    > sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of
                                    > the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will
                                    > be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to
                                    > 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                                    > - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that'
                                    > or 'this'.
                                    > - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with
                                    > vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of
                                    > 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but
                                    > also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.
                                    >
                                    > - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be
                                    > either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it
                                    > is 'is'.
                                    >
                                    > - 'eva' comes from the commentary.
                                    >
                                    > Good luck &
                                    > may you be happy
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Dear Larry, ... N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation. In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I like to
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
                                      Dear Larry,
                                      Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                                      > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                      > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                      > plus
                                      > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                      > correct?
                                      ------
                                      N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                      In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                      like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                      the English grammar.
                                      Nina.



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                      Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
                                        Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
                                        Op 24-jan-2011, om 4:24 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

                                        > For all:
                                        > If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing
                                        > to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows.
                                        > Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will
                                        > help you.
                                        -----
                                        N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are
                                        engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much time
                                        for you. For the busy readers here best would be short notes at a time.
                                        With respect,
                                        Nina.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Larry Rosenfeld
                                        Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry ... [Non-text portions of
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
                                          Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so
                                          kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry

                                          On 1/26/2011 4:25 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear Larry,
                                          > Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                          >
                                          > > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                          > > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                          > > plus
                                          > > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                          > > correct?
                                          > ------
                                          > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                          > In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                          > like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                          > the English grammar.
                                          > Nina.
                                          >


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Ong Yong Peng
                                          Dear Larry, this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary? metta, Yong Peng. ... Thank you so
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 29, 2011
                                            Dear Larry,

                                            this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary?


                                            metta,
                                            Yong Peng.

                                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Larry Rosenfeld wrote:

                                            Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully.

                                            > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
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