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Question re: a.t.thahaakaara

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  • Bryan Levman
    Hi All, In Buddhaghosa s commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and also in Dharmapala s commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
    Message 1 of 21 , Jan 3, 2011
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      Hi All,

      In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and also in
      Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
      Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:

      akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi (?)
      pati.t.thitaa. ratto hi raagavasena pati.t.thito hoti, du.t.tho dosavasena,
      muu.lho mohavasena, paraama.t.tho di.t.thivasena, thaamagato anusayavasena,
      vinibaddho maanavasena, ani.t.tha"ngato vicikicchaavasena, vikkhepagato
      uddhaccavasena pati.t.thito hoti.

      which I have translated as

      Being established/fixed in what can be expressed (akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa)
      means being established by the a.t.thahaakaaras (?) in the five skandhas. One is
      established as stained because of passion; one is established as corrupt because
      of hatred and one is foolish/confused because of ignorance, because of views one
      is attached, because of dormant dispositions one is strong (in them), because of
      conceit, one is bound (by them), because of doubt one has not attained
      perfection, because of flurry one is confused.


      Has anyone seen this compound before (a.t.thahaakaara) and do you know what it
      means?

      Thanks for your help,

      Bryan



      P. S. ati.t.thitaa is plural as it modfies "sattaa" (beings) in the prior paada
      of the poem.




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Lennart Lopin
      Hi Bryan, Did you see this: Aṭṭhahākārehīti ‘‘apīḷanāyā’’tiādayo *pañca* mettopasaṃhārākārā ‘‘averino hontū’’tiādayo
      Message 2 of 21 , Jan 3, 2011
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        Hi Bryan,

        Did you see this:

        Aṭṭhahākārehīti ‘‘apīḷanāyā’’tiādayo *pañca* mettopasaṃhārākārā ‘‘averino
        hontū’’tiādayo *tayo *mettopasaṃhārākārāti imehi *aṭṭhahākārehi*. From: (
        Paṭisambhidāmagga-Aṭṭhakathā<http://theravadin.org/canon/s0517a.att.html?s=a%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhah%C4%81k%C4%81rehi>)
        - see also this search
        result<http://theravada.org/Result.aspx?s=a%E1%B9%AD%E1%B9%ADhah%C4%81k%C4%81rehi>

        metta,

        Lennart

        On Mon, Jan 3, 2011 at 2:45 PM, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:

        >
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and also in
        > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
        > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
        >
        > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi (?)
        > pati.t.thitaa. ratto hi raagavasena pati.t.thito hoti, du.t.tho dosavasena,
        >
        > muu.lho mohavasena, paraama.t.tho di.t.thivasena, thaamagato anusayavasena,
        >
        > vinibaddho maanavasena, ani.t.tha"ngato vicikicchaavasena, vikkhepagato
        > uddhaccavasena pati.t.thito hoti.
        >
        > which I have translated as
        >
        > Being established/fixed in what can be expressed (akkheyyasmi.m
        > pati.t.thitaa)
        > means being established by the a.t.thahaakaaras (?) in the five skandhas.
        > One is
        > established as stained because of passion; one is established as corrupt
        > because
        > of hatred and one is foolish/confused because of ignorance, because of
        > views one
        > is attached, because of dormant dispositions one is strong (in them),
        > because of
        > conceit, one is bound (by them), because of doubt one has not attained
        > perfection, because of flurry one is confused.
        >
        > Has anyone seen this compound before (a.t.thahaakaara) and do you know what
        > it
        > means?
        >
        > Thanks for your help,
        >
        > Bryan
        >
        > P. S. ati.t.thitaa is plural as it modfies "sattaa" (beings) in the prior
        > paada
        > of the poem.
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Bryan, ... N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: Clinging to the five khandhas in eight ways . akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie
        Message 3 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
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          Dear Bryan,
          Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

          > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
          > also in
          > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
          > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
          >
          > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
          > (?)
          > pati.t.thitaa.
          ---------
          N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
          eight ways'.
          akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
          words a.t.tha and aakaara.

          ------
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bryan Levman
          Thanks Nina and Lennart, There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga, Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and
          Message 4 of 21 , Jan 4, 2011
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            Thanks Nina and Lennart,



            There is a reference just before the one you cited in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga,
            Lennart, which gives a.t.thaakaare as a synonym (and yours has pa~nca + tayo =
            a.t.tha). So as Nina has pointed out, it means 8 ways of clinging to the five
            khandhas and the 8 ways are listed immediately afterwards in my translation.

            Thanks very much Nina and Lennart,

            Metta,

            Bryan






            ________________________________
            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tue, January 4, 2011 6:21:32 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] Question re: a.t.thahaakaara


            Dear Bryan,
            Op 3-jan-2011, om 20:45 heeft Bryan Levman het volgende geschreven:

            > In Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Samiddhisutta (SN 1, 11) and
            > also in
            > Dharmapala's commentary on a similar verse in the Itivuttaka 63 (the
            > Addhaasutta) there is a word which I haven't see before:
            >
            > akkheyyasmi.m pati.t.thitaa ti pa~ncasu khandhesu a.t.thahaakaarehi
            > (?)
            > pati.t.thitaa.
            ---------
            N: Commentary to the Samiddhisutta: 'Clinging to the five khandhas in
            eight ways'.
            akaara: way. a.t.tha: eight. The h is inserted to tie together the
            words a.t.tha and aakaara.

            ------
            Nina.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • sakyaputtiyo
            Dear Dhamma friends, i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
            Message 5 of 21 , Jan 22, 2011
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              Dear Dhamma friends,
              i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

              A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

              If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha + aakaara

              May you all be happy and peaceful
              Bhante Sobhana
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Veberable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana
              Message 6 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                Veberable Bhante Sobhana,
                Op 22-jan-2011, om 9:53 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

                > According to kaccaayana, the case ending is not ehi, but hi. The
                > commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga .tikaa says
                > a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                ------
                N: I am glad you quote Kaccaayana, which I find an important
                authority. Thank you. I hope you will share more from Kaccaayana with
                us.
                With respect,
                Nina.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jim Anderson
                Dear Bhante Sobhana, ... I take a.t.thahaakaarehi as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi. The elision of the i at the end of a.t.thahi can be
                Message 7 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                  Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                  > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
                  > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
                  > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
                  > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
                  > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                  >
                  > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
                  > aakaara

                  I take "a.t.thahaakaarehi" as two separate words, i.e., a.t.thahi aakaarehi.
                  The elision of the 'i' at the end of "a.t.thahi" can be easily accounted for
                  by a general sandhi rule in Kaccaayana (Kc 12: saraa sare lopa.m) which
                  ordains that vowels are elided before a following vowel. However this is
                  only the first of a set of rules dealing with combinations of vowels

                  Best wishes,

                  Jim
                • Lennart Lopin
                  Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs Grammatik des Pali , par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists aṭṭhāhi as a rare side
                  Message 8 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                    Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                    Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",
                    par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some
                    cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and
                    "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's
                    context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,

                    metta,
                    Lennart


                    On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:

                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Dhamma friends,
                    > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic
                    > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.
                    >
                    > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the
                    > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians
                    > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case
                    > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga
                    > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.
                    >
                    > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +
                    > aakaara
                    >
                    > May you all be happy and peaceful
                    > Bhante Sobhana
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Larry Rosenfeld
                    Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus - In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the SLTP at
                    Message 9 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                      Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                      In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                      SLTP at
                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                      the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                      Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                      panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                      What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                      dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                      or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                      To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                      translations of the above sentence fragment:

                      - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                      that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                      - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                      mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                      - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                      - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                      the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                      - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                      body' is maintained ...."
                      - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                      body!'"
                      - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                      'there is body' is present to him ...."

                      Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                      BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                      this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                      (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                      suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                      and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                      context.

                      As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                      With metta,
                      Larry


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sakyaputtiyo
                      Yeah Jim, you are right: the final i vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that
                      Message 10 of 21 , Jan 23, 2011
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                        Yeah Jim,
                        you are right: the final 'i' vowel of a.t.thahi is elided when this word is combined with aakaarehi. The point i wanted to highlight is that a.t.thahi has third case ending, the 'h' is not an inserted letter for euphony. If the term would be 'a.t.thaakaarehi', the 'hi' has been dropped - this is a samaasa.

                        For all:
                        If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows. Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will help you.

                        May all beings be well and happy
                        Bhante Sobhana
                      • Rosa Grau
                        Hi Larry, It is actually vā pana or else (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun.
                        Message 11 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                          Hi Larry,

                          It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him, his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but sandhi.

                          Rosa
                          _____

                          From: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Rosenfeld
                          Sent: dilluns, 24 / gener / 2011 02:51
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Pali] how best to translate "panassa"?




                          Dear Bhantes, friends, teachers & Pali-language gurus -

                          In the (Maha)-Satipatthana Sutta (DN 22/MN 10, e.g., as found in the
                          SLTP at
                          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/MN_I_utf8.html#pts.055),
                          the following refrain is found about two dozen times:

                          Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                          panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....

                          What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                          dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable) "pana,"
                          or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?

                          To facilitate some analysis, please allow me to share the following
                          translations of the above sentence fragment:

                          - Bhikkhu Analayo (2003, 2006, Windhorse Pub., p. 4): "Or, mindfulness
                          that 'there is a body' is established in him ...."
                          - Bhikkhu Nanamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi (1995, 2001, MLDB, p. 146): "Or else
                          mindfulness that 'there is a body' is simply established in him ...."
                          - Nyanasatta Thera (1994, ATI): "Or his mindfulness is established with
                          the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                          - Soma Thera (1999, ATI): "Or indeed his mindfulness is established with
                          the thought: 'The body exists'...."
                          - Thanissaro Bhikkhu (2008, ATI): "Or his mindfulness that 'There is a
                          body' is maintained ...."
                          - VRI (1985, 1996, p. 7): "Now his awareness is established: 'This is
                          body!'"
                          - Maurice Walshe (1987, 1995, LDB, p. 336): "Or else, mindfulness that
                          'there is body' is present to him ...."

                          Also, for what it is worth, I see through Dr. Peter Friedlander's
                          BodhgayaNews search engine (http://www.bodhgayanews.net/pali.htm), that
                          this term, "panassa," actually can be found in 346 SLTP BJT records
                          (canonical and post-canonical), so it is certainly not unique to these
                          suttas; for some reason, I've just stumbled across it here at this time,
                          and I thought others might more readily recognize/value the term in this
                          context.

                          As always, thank you ahead of time for any shared insights or wisdom.
                          With metta,
                          Larry

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Larry, ... N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness is established. Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary
                          Message 12 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                            Dear Larry,
                            Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                            > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                            > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                            >
                            > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                            > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                            > "pana,"
                            > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                            --------
                            N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                            is established.
                            Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                            mindfulness of breathing):
                            <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                            mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                            Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                            thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                            woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                            that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                            attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                            attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                            paccupatthita hoti].

                            Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.

                            This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                            What is the purpose for which it is established?

                            Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                            That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                            further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                            uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                            increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.

                            For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                            the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                            is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                            [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                            ---------
                            Nina.




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Bryan Levman
                            Dear Bhante Sobhana, Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound, Metta, Bryan ... From: Lennart Lopin
                            Message 13 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                              Dear Bhante Sobhana,

                              Thank you very much for this clarification to my question. I now understand the compound,

                              Metta, Bryan



                              --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...> wrote:

                              From: Lennart Lopin <novalis78@...>
                              Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: Question re: a.t.thahaakaara
                              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                              Received: Sunday, January 23, 2011, 2:44 PM
















                               









                              Dear Bhante Sobhana,



                              Thanks for the input. Just checked with Achim Fahs' "Grammatik des Pali",

                              par. 152 (p. 99) where it lists "aṭṭhāhi" as a "rare side form of some

                              cardinal numbers" for the Instr. and Ablative. He also lists "pañcahi" and

                              "dasabhi" in the same paradigm. Did not look it up before, but Bryan's

                              context made it pretty clear. Thanks again,



                              metta,

                              Lennart



                              On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 3:53 AM, sakyaputtiyo <sakyaputtiyo@...>wrote:



                              >

                              >

                              > Dear Dhamma friends,

                              > i have a comment on the term a.t.thahaakaarehi. It has become an old topic

                              > - you all have stopped discussing about it. hope it helps.

                              >

                              > A.t.thahaakaarehi is a compound term in third case, made by dropping the

                              > case of the first word: a.t.tha + hi + aakaara + hi. Modern grammarians

                              > consider 'ehi' as an instrumental case. According to kaccaayana, the case

                              > ending is not ehi, but hi. The commentary on sa.yutta nikaaya, Mahaavagga

                              > .tikaa says a.t.thahaakaarehi means a.t.thahi kaara.nehi.

                              >

                              > If the term is a.t.thaakaara, then it is a case of sandhi word: a.t.t.ha +

                              > aakaara

                              >

                              > May you all be happy and peaceful

                              > Bhante Sobhana

                              >

                              >

                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Larry Rosenfeld
                              Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera s translation of the
                              Message 14 of 21 , Jan 24, 2011
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                                Wow, Dr. van Gorkom, thank you for the amazingly detailed and helpful
                                response. I very much appreciate the sharing of Ven. Soma Thera's
                                translation of the commentaries.

                                If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana" plus
                                "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                correct? (If not, I apologize for my extended display of ignorance.)

                                Thank you so much!
                                Larry

                                On 1/24/2011 9:03 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Larry,
                                > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                >
                                > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                                > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                                > >
                                > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                                > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                                > > "pana,"
                                > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                                > --------
                                > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                                > is established.
                                > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                                > mindfulness of breathing):
                                > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                                > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                                > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                                > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                                > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                                > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                                > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                                > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                                > paccupatthita hoti].
                                >
                                > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                                >
                                > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                                > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                                >
                                > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                                > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                                > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                                > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                                > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                                >
                                > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                                > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                                > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                                > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                                > ---------
                                > Nina.
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • sakyaputtiyo
                                Dear larry, i hope it helps you. As a verb, assa is either similar to hoti or it is in optative. E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa As either sixth or
                                Message 15 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                                  Dear larry,
                                  i hope it helps you.

                                  As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.

                                  E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa


                                  As either sixth or fourth:

                                  375. ‘Atthi kaayo’ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya

                                  it is consturcted in this manner:

                                  375. vaa pana ‘atthi (eva) kaayo’ iti assa sati yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.

                                  - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                                  - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that' or 'this'.
                                  - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.

                                  - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it is 'is'.

                                  - 'eva' comes from the commentary.

                                  Good luck &
                                  may you be happy


                                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear Larry,
                                  > Op 24-jan-2011, om 2:50 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                  >
                                  > > Atthi kāyoti [/or /vedanāti /or /cittanti /or /dhammāti] vā
                                  > > panassa sati paccupaṭṭhitā hoti ....
                                  > >
                                  > > What is the best way to translate "panassa"? For instant, is it a
                                  > > dative or genitive form of (what I thought was the indeclinable)
                                  > > "pana,"
                                  > > or a compound of "pana" and "assa," or something else?
                                  > --------
                                  > N: Panassa: for him mindfulness is established, or: his mindfulness
                                  > is established.
                                  > Soma Thera (the Way of MIndfulness) renders the commentary (at end of
                                  > mindfulness of breathing):
                                  > <Atthi kayoti va panassa sati paccupatthita hoti = "Or, indeed, his
                                  > mindfulness is established, with the thought: 'The body exists.'"
                                  > Mindfulness is established for the yogi through careful scrutiny. He
                                  > thinks: There is the body, but there is no being, no person, no
                                  > woman, no man, no soul, nothing pertaining to a soul, no "I," nothing
                                  > that is mine, no one, and nothing belonging to anyone [kayoti ca
                                  > attli, na satto, na puggalo, na itthi, na puriso, na atta, na
                                  > attaniyam naham, na mama, na koci, na kassaciti evam assa sati
                                  > paccupatthita hoti].
                                  >
                                  > Yavadeva = "To the extent necessary." It denotes purpose.
                                  >
                                  > This is said: The mindfulness established is not for another purpose.
                                  > What is the purpose for which it is established?
                                  >
                                  > Nanamattaya patissatimattaya = "For just knowledge and remembrance."
                                  > That is just for the sake of a wider and wider, or further and
                                  > further measure of knowledge and of mindfulness [aparaparam
                                  > uttaruttari ñanapamanatthaya ceva satipamanattha-yaca]. For the
                                  > increase of mindfulness and clear comprehension is the meaning.
                                  >
                                  > For the purpose of reaching the knowledge of body-contemplation to
                                  > the highest extent [kayanupassana ñanam param pamanam papanatthaya]
                                  > is the meaning of: To the extent necessary for just knowledge
                                  > [yavadeva ñanamattaya].
                                  > ---------
                                  > Nina.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Larry Rosenfeld
                                  Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you so much! - Larry ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                                    Dear Rosa - very clear, very helpful & greatly appreciated! Thank you
                                    so much! - Larry

                                    On 1/24/2011 6:48 AM, Rosa Grau wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Hi Larry,
                                    >
                                    > It is actually vā pana "or else" (see PED under Pana) + assa (of him,
                                    > his). Pana goes with the previous word and then comes the genitive
                                    > pronoun. Final a of pana is elided that's why the two words appear
                                    > together. It could also be written pan' assa. It is not a compound but
                                    > sandhi.
                                    >
                                    > Rosa
                                    >


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Larry Rosenfeld
                                    Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to spread the Dhamma, for
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 25, 2011
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                                      Dear Bhante, your explanation is amazing in its unmatched details and
                                      thoughtful, caring accuracy. Thank you, as always, for helping to
                                      spread the Dhamma, for opening my eyes, with your many gifts. With
                                      abiding appreciation, Larry

                                      On 1/25/2011 10:52 AM, sakyaputtiyo wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Dear larry,
                                      > i hope it helps you.
                                      >
                                      > As a verb, 'assa' is either similar to 'hoti' or it is in optative.
                                      >
                                      > E.g. 378 dakkho goghaatako nisinno assa
                                      >
                                      > As either sixth or fourth:
                                      >
                                      > 375. âEUR~Atthi kaayoâEUR^(TM)ti vaa panassa sati paccupa.t.thitaa
                                      > hoti yaavadeva ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya
                                      >
                                      > it is consturcted in this manner:
                                      >
                                      > 375. vaa pana âEUR~atthi (eva) kaayoâEUR^(TM) iti assa sati yaavadeva
                                      > ~naa.namattaaya pa.tissatimattaaya paccupa.t.thitaa hoti.
                                      >
                                      > - Here, 'assa' can be both fourth and sixth. I think it should be
                                      > sixth in this case, as constructed above. It is preferred by most of
                                      > the learned monks. If 'assa' is considered as fourth, then 'sati' will
                                      > be impersonal, nobody's sati. This sounds interesting, closer to
                                      > 'anatta doctrine', and is preferred by many other scholars.
                                      > - assa ('bhikkhuno' or 'yogino')sati: again, assa can either be 'that'
                                      > or 'this'.
                                      > - Note that although panassa is a sandhi word, pana actually goes with
                                      > vaa. Many learned monks place 'vaa pana' at the front in the sense of
                                      > 'moreover' or 'besides' 'in addition to...' or 'not only this..but
                                      > also' - in other way, apart from the above mentioned.
                                      >
                                      > - Atthi has different meaning in different contexts. And it can be
                                      > either avyaya or verb. It can mean 'is' or 'exists'. Here, I think it
                                      > is 'is'.
                                      >
                                      > - 'eva' comes from the commentary.
                                      >
                                      > Good luck &
                                      > may you be happy
                                      >


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Nina van Gorkom
                                      Dear Larry, ... N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation. In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I like to
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                        Dear Larry,
                                        Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:

                                        > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                        > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                        > plus
                                        > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                        > correct?
                                        ------
                                        N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                        In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                        like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                        the English grammar.
                                        Nina.



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Nina van Gorkom
                                        Venerable Bhante Sobhana, ... N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                          Venerable Bhante Sobhana,
                                          Op 24-jan-2011, om 4:24 heeft sakyaputtiyo het volgende geschreven:

                                          > For all:
                                          > If anyone is willing to learn the Kaccaayana Grammar, i am willing
                                          > to post grammatical notes from kaccaayana, as far my time allows.
                                          > Those interested, please tell me how i should post and what will
                                          > help you.
                                          -----
                                          N: Thank you for your kind offer. I think anything that you are
                                          engaged with at the moment, so that it does not take too much time
                                          for you. For the busy readers here best would be short notes at a time.
                                          With respect,
                                          Nina.



                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Larry Rosenfeld
                                          Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry ... [Non-text portions of
                                          Message 20 of 21 , Jan 26, 2011
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                                            Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so
                                            kindly and helpfully. With metta & deep appreciation, Larry

                                            On 1/26/2011 4:25 AM, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear Larry,
                                            > Op 24-jan-2011, om 16:21 heeft Larry Rosenfeld het volgende geschreven:
                                            >
                                            > > If I may attempt to break it down further for my Pali-language
                                            > > beginner's mind, it sounds like "panassa" could be parsed as "pana"
                                            > > plus
                                            > > "assa," where "assa" could be translated as "for him." Is this
                                            > > correct?
                                            > ------
                                            > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
                                            > In English we would say: expressed by a genetive, of him or his. I
                                            > like to be careful and I am not so inclined to fit in all words into
                                            > the English grammar.
                                            > Nina.
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Ong Yong Peng
                                            Dear Larry, this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary? metta, Yong Peng. ... Thank you so
                                            Message 21 of 21 , Jan 29, 2011
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                                              Dear Larry,

                                              this is a wonderful discussion. Would it not be better if you can round up the discussion and provide a summary?


                                              metta,
                                              Yong Peng.

                                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Larry Rosenfeld wrote:

                                              Thank you so much, once again, Nina, for sharing your vast knowledge so kindly and helpfully.

                                              > N: There is a relation between assa and sati, a possessive relation.
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