Re: [Pali] AN2.4 Samacitta Vagga (3)
- Dear Yong Peng,
Thank you very much.
Op 30-nov-2010, om 15:22 heeft Ong Yong Peng het volgende geschreven
> Na tveva, bhikkhave, maataapituuna.m kata.m vaa hoti pa.tikata.m vaa.-------
> not / even so / monks / to parents / done / or / is / provided / or
> Even so, O monks, (it) is neither an act nor provision (of
> repayment) to (his) parents.
> tveva = tu + eva = but yet, even so.
> kata (pp of karoti) done.
> vaa (conj) or.
> pa.tikata (pp of pa.tikaroti) provided, guarded against.
N: pa.tikata.m: instead of provided, guarded, I think of the meaning
of pa.ti as against, towards, and looking at the word pa.tikaara, I
think of counteraction, requittal. Thus, as you put between brackets:
> Imissaa ca, bhikkhave, mahaapathaviyaa pahuutarattaratanaaya
> maataapitaro issaraadhipacce rajje pati.t.thaapeyya, na tveva,
> bhikkhave, maataapituuna.m kata.m vaa hoti pa.tikata.m vaa.
> on this / and / monks / on great earth / for abundant treasures of
> the seven kind / parents / in power of a ruler / in authority /
> would establish / not / even so / monks / to parents / done / or /
> is / provided / or
> O monks, (if) he would establish (his) parents in authority, in the
> power of absolute rule, over the abundant treasures of the seven
> kind on this great earth, even so, O monks, (it) is neither an act
> nor provision (of repayment) to (his) parents.
N: he would establish his parents in authority over this mighty earth
abounding in the seven treasures...
I think that pahuutarattaratanaaya is an attribute of mahaapathaviyaa.
> Bahukaaraa, bhikkhave, maataapitaro puttaana.m aapaadakaa posakaa-------
> imassa lokassa dassetaaro.
> of great service / monks / parents / to children / guardians /
> nourishing / of this / of world / guides
> O monks, of great service (are) parents to (their) children,
> guardians, nourishing (them), guides of this world.
N: lokassa daasetaaro: PTS: they introduce them to this world.
> Yo ca kho, bhikkhave, maataapitaro assaddhe saddhaasampadaaya
> samaadapeti niveseti pati.t.thaapeti, dussiile siilasampadaaya
> samaadapeti niveseti pati.t.thaapeti, maccharii caagasampadaaya
> samaadapeti niveseti pati.t.thaapeti, duppa~n~ne pa~n~naasampadaaya
> samaadapeti niveseti pati.t.thaapeti, ettaavataa kho, bhikkhave,
> maataapituuna.m kata~nca hoti pa.tikata~ncaa"ti.
> And indeed, O monks, (one) who instills, settles and establishes
> (his) unbelieving parents in faith;
N: Samaadapeti: Instills: another suggestion: PTS incites...PED:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Dear Ven. Sobhana,
thank you. The name is Yong Peng.
It is good you look up another source, but you have not gone much into details. Allow me to help elaborate on point 1(a). This is exactly what the commentary says:
saadhuuti aayaacanatthe nipaato.
First, I annotate it for the beginners:
saadhuuti aayaacan'atthe nipaato.
Now, translating the commentary:
'saadhu' (is) a particle for asking*, adhortation*, addressing*.
* see PTS PED - aayaacana.
In Pali, nipaata includes conjunctions and adverbs. So, we can translate 'saadhu' as 'please'.
Finally, I make an attempt with the original sentence to show what I mean:
Saadhu, bhante, bhagavaa yena aayasmaa saariputto tenupasa`nkamatu anukampa.m upaadaayaa'ti.
please / venerable sir / Blessed One / where / venerable / Sariputta /
there-let...approach / out of compassion
Please, sir, may the Blessed One, out of compassion, approach there [the place] where the venerable Sariputta (is staying).'
There is a tendency for some, as I pointed in a recent post, to rationalise the Pali using an existing English translation. I find it uncomprehensible when given our level of Pali understanding, we can do a slightly better job. In fact, I also see lurking dangers in doing so. I do not intend to elaborate on this.
As a PTS sponsoring member, I am also using F.L.Woodward's translation as a reference in this exercise, i.e., from AN1.1.1, another point which I have mentioned several times too. However, that does not mean it is my only reference, or that I have to reproduce directly from PTS or any other existing works. This "read and follow" mentality is more suitable for someone who only needs an English translation, and does not bother with the original Pali passage, not a Pali student.
It is in fact much easier for me to type out the PTS translation, than doing extensive referencing on dictionaries, grammars, and cross checking other translations. However, this is not a "typing" exercise for me, and I would rather spend my time doing something more meaningful. Let's make this a good learning opportunity for everyone, so that the time and effort we put in is rewarding.
Lastly, if you use additional examples in Pali, please bear in mind, it is your responsibility to provide an accurate English translation. Anyone can generate Pali sentences using the appropriate search tool/program.
I will make this post as a 'landmark' message for the future. Thank you.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, USO wrote:
Here are some of the meanings of Saadhu from One of the Pali-Myanmar Dictionaries.
1. "i request you" (aayaacana); "I order you" (aanatti).
2. o.k., alright(sampa.ticchana)
3. interjection used to rejoice (anumodana)
4. good, beautiful (sunadara, bhaddaka, sobhana)
5. well (adverb)
7. wholesome action...
Here, we take the first meaning in cases like the one you are discussing. The commentaries also explain as 'aayaacana'. In Burma, we explain like this: yena aayasmaa saariputto (atthi) tena upasa'nkamatu. 'Tena' here is used in the sense of second case: 'to', 'towards'. Here, it will be 'aayaacama' for a group of deities are requesting the Buddha.