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Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

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  • Brett Morris
    Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative. ... From: Piya Tan To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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      Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative.




      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...>
      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 7:30:31 AM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

      Brett,

      You might find something useful in this article:


      Rupert Gethin,

      “Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.” In *The Buddhist Forum*,
      vol. 3 1991-1993 (Papers in honour and appreciation of Professor David
      Seyfort Ruegg’s contri­bution to Indological, Buddhist and Tibetan Studies),
      ed. Tadeusz Skorupski & Ulrich Pagel. London, School of Oriental and African
      Studies, 1994:11-35.

      With metta,

      Piya Tan

      On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Brett Morris <brettmorris73@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions
      > on
      > bhava'nga.
      > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
      > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
      >
      > 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
      > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
      > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today.
      > Is
      > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
      > Abhidhamma?
      >
      > 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really
      > started
      > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
      >
      > Many thanks and metta,
      > Brett
      >
      >
      --
      The Minding Centre
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • Brett Morris
      Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions: N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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        Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions:

        N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
        are no
        latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
        citta.
        It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
        arise.
        >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency lying dormant? In
        >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate according to the
        >Abhidhamma? Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
        >pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to hell, i.e. the
        >last active mind of the previous life would be filled with torment? This is
        >getting at one of my questions, in the Suttas (and our experience) it seems that
        >there certainly are latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma
        >accounts for these.
        >


        N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
        also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
        Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
        speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
        life now, instead of going into historical issues.
        I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
        not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
        There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
        no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
        citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
        cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.

        >B: I very much appreciate this response. As far as the reality of bhavangacitta
        >yes it is very clear and as you say some such mechanism must exist to keep life
        >'going on'. I am curious as to the historical 'timeline' just to get a picture
        >of what is mentioned where. For example, as you cited, in the Pali Suttas there
        >is reference to this luminous mind. Later, this was equated with the bhavanga.
        >But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind continues from moment
        >too moment with some continuity and in states like deep dreamless sleep. In
        >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can arise at any given
        >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement continue in a
        >wholesome bhavanga. So I am not doubting bhavanga per se, nor even the
        >commentaries, but just trying to piece together how latent defilements are
        >accounted for and what the ancient commentators were concerned with accounting
        >for. For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality of daily
        >life, as it is clear that until that potential is eradicated I am in some
        >bondage yet I would like to know how these ancients dealt with it.

        much metta,
        Brett






        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 8:19:30 AM
        Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

        Dear Brett,
        Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

        > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
        > questions on
        > bhava'nga.
        > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
        > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
        --------
        N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
        Series,no 10:

        Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

        There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
        not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
        when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
        citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
        arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
        Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
        translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
        keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
        goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
        bhavanga-citta.
        There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
        there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
        kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
        kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
        still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
        Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
        between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
        example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
        are different processes of citta and in between these processes
        bhavanga-cittas arise.
        When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
        cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
        cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
        impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
        still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
        dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
        sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
        not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
        earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
        function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
        In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
        Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
        explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
        arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
        moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
        mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
        sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
        smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
        function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
        happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
        agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
        cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
        {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
        the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
        consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
        element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
        consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
        javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
        ---------

        > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
        > bhava'nga is
        > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
        > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
        > it today. Is
        > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
        > in the
        > Abhidhamma?
        -------

        Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
        > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
        upakkilesehi
        > vippamutta.m.
        N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
        from
        oncoming defilements.
        >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
        N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
        >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
        N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
        mind.

        -------
        The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
        the word
        pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
        clear
        in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
        citta." Now
        I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
        she
        explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
        experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
        when one
        is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
        not
        experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
        experiences
        all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
        give rise
        to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
        function of
        keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
        asleep and
        also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
        uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
        experiences the
        same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
        echo of
        the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
        previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
        are no
        latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
        citta.
        It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
        arise.
        -------
        N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
        triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
        each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
        continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
        N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
        the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
        interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
        conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
        the new object.
        ----------
        > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
        > really started
        > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
        ----
        N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
        also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
        Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
        speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
        life now, instead of going into historical issues.
        I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
        not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
        There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
        no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
        citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
        cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
        ---------
        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



        ------------------------------------

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      • Brett Morris
        Thanks Bryan, I will look at this. with metta, Brett ________________________________ From: Bryan Levman To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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          Thanks Bryan, I will look at this.

          with metta,
          Brett





          ________________________________
          From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 2:31:51 PM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


          Dear Nina,

          Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava"nga citta.

          Dear Brett,

          Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
          on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

          Metta,

          Bryan

          ________________________________
          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:19:30 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

          Dear Brett,
          Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

          > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
          > questions on
          > bhava'nga.
          > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
          > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
          --------
          N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
          Series,no 10:

          Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

          There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
          not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
          when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
          citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
          arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
          Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
          translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
          keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
          goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
          bhavanga-citta.
          There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
          there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
          kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
          kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
          still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
          Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
          between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
          example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
          are different processes of citta and in between these processes
          bhavanga-cittas arise.
          When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
          cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
          cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
          impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
          still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
          dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
          sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
          not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
          earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
          function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
          In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
          Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
          explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
          arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
          moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
          mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
          sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
          smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
          function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
          happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
          agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
          cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
          {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
          the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
          consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
          element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
          consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
          javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
          ---------

          > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
          > bhava'nga is
          > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
          > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
          > it today. Is
          > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
          > in the
          > Abhidhamma?
          -------

          Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
          > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
          upakkilesehi
          > vippamutta.m.
          N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
          from
          oncoming defilements.
          >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
          N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
          >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
          N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
          mind.

          -------
          The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
          the word
          pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
          clear
          in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
          citta." Now
          I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
          she
          explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
          experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
          when one
          is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
          not
          experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
          experiences
          all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
          give rise
          to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
          function of
          keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
          asleep and
          also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
          uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
          experiences the
          same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
          echo of
          the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
          previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
          are no
          latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
          citta.
          It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
          arise.
          -------
          N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
          triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
          each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
          continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
          N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
          the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
          interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
          conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
          the new object.
          ----------
          > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
          > really started
          > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
          ----
          N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
          also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
          Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
          speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
          life now, instead of going into historical issues.
          I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
          not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
          There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
          no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
          citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
          cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
          ---------
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ------------------------------------

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          Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
          [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
          Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Kumara Bhikkhu
          ... A much later book, Selfless Mind by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this. kb
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
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            Bryan Levman wrote thus at 04:31 12/10/2010:
            >Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
            >on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

            A much later book, "Selfless Mind" by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this.

            kb
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Dear Brett, your questions are appreciated. ... N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so long as they have not been eradicated by
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
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              Dear Brett,
              your questions are appreciated.
              Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
              >
              > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
              > lying dormant? In
              > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
              > according to the
              > >Abhidhamma?
              --------
              N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
              long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
              I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

              <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
              by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
              inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
              life.
              The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
              accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
              (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
              (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
              and ignorance (avijjaa).
              It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
              and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
              not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
              have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
              our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
              the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
              people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
              there are the appropriate conditions..>
              Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
              the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
              condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
              Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
              lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
              --------
              > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
              > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
              > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
              > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
              > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
              > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
              > for these.
              ------
              N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
              of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
              dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
              citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
              akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
              the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
              until arahatship has been reached.
              --------
              B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
              continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
              like deep dreamless sleep. In
              > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
              > arise at any given
              > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
              > continue in a
              > >wholesome bhavanga.
              --------
              N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
              be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
              are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
              Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
              merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
              vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
              We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
              kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
              the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
              etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
              all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
              deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
              we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
              Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
              latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
              -------
              > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
              > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
              > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
              > ancients dealt with it.
              ----------
              N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
              akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
              to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
              eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
              doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
              the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
              -------
              Nina.



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brett Morris
              Dear Nina, I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
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                Dear Nina,
                I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have
                some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching and
                processing:)

                much metta,
                Brett





                ________________________________
                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:22:00 AM
                Subject: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                Dear Brett,
                your questions are appreciated.
                Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
                >
                > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
                > lying dormant? In
                > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
                > according to the
                > >Abhidhamma?
                --------
                N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
                long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
                I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

                <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
                by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
                inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
                life.
                The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
                accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
                (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
                (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
                and ignorance (avijjaa).
                It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
                and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
                not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
                have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
                our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
                the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
                people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
                there are the appropriate conditions..>
                Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
                the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
                condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
                Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
                lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
                --------
                > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
                > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
                > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
                > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
                > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
                > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
                > for these.
                ------
                N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
                of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
                dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
                citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
                akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
                the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
                until arahatship has been reached.
                --------
                B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
                continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
                like deep dreamless sleep. In
                > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
                > arise at any given
                > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
                > continue in a
                > >wholesome bhavanga.
                --------
                N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
                be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
                are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
                Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
                merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
                vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
                We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
                kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
                the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
                etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
                all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
                deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
                we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
                Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
                latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
                -------
                > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
                > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
                > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
                > ancients dealt with it.
                ----------
                N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
                akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
                to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
                eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
                doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
                the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
                -------
                Nina.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Brett, ... N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just asked,
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
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                  Dear Brett,
                  Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                  > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                  > may have
                  > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                  > researching and
                  > processing:)
                  ------
                  N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                  Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                  asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                  vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                  vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                  People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                  moment.
                  At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                  tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                  falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                  desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                  and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                  akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                  cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                  enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                  Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                  have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                  avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                  ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                  The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                  at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                  eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                  latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                  lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                  Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                  na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                  gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                  katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                  appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                  samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                  pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                  tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                  kevala~nca
                  vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                  *******
                  Nina.






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Brett Morris
                  Dear Nina, Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome. much metta,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
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                    Dear Nina,
                    Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such
                    reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome.
                    much metta,

                    Brett




                    ________________________________
                    From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 8:27:39 AM
                    Subject: Re: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                    Dear Brett,
                    Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                    > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                    > may have
                    > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                    > researching and
                    > processing:)
                    ------
                    N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                    Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                    asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                    vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                    vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                    People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                    moment.
                    At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                    tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                    falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                    desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                    and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                    akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                    cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                    enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                    Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                    have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                    avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                    ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                    The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                    at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                    eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                    latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                    lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                    Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                    na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                    gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                    katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                    appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                    samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                    pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                    tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                    kevala~nca
                    vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                    *******
                    Nina.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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