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Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

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  • Piya Tan
    Brett, You might find something useful in this article: Rupert Gethin, “Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.” In *The Buddhist Forum*, vol. 3
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
      Brett,

      You might find something useful in this article:


      Rupert Gethin,

      �Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.� In *The Buddhist Forum*,
      vol. 3 1991-1993 (Papers in honour and appreciation of Professor David
      Seyfort Ruegg�s contri�bution to Indological, Buddhist and Tibetan Studies),
      ed. Tadeusz Skorupski & Ulrich Pagel. London, School of Oriental and African
      Studies, 1994:11-35.

      With metta,

      Piya Tan

      On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Brett Morris <brettmorris73@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions
      > on
      > bhava'nga.
      > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
      > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
      >
      > 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
      > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
      > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today.
      > Is
      > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
      > Abhidhamma?
      >
      > 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really
      > started
      > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
      >
      > Many thanks and metta,
      > Brett
      >
      >
      --
      The Minding Centre
      Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
      Singapore 650644
      hpl: 8211 0879
      Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
      Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Brett, ... N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma Series,no 10: Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta. There are moments when there
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
        Dear Brett,
        Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

        > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
        > questions on
        > bhava'nga.
        > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
        > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
        --------
        N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
        Series,no 10:

        Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

        There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
        not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
        when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
        citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
        arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
        Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
        translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
        keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
        goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
        bhavanga-citta.
        There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
        there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
        kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
        kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
        still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
        Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
        between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
        example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
        are different processes of citta and in between these processes
        bhavanga-cittas arise.
        When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
        cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
        cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
        impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
        still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pa�ca-
        dv�r�vajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
        sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
        not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
        earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
        function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
        In the �Atthasaalinii�, the commentary to the first book of the
        Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
        explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
        arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
        moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
        mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
        sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
        smelt it and ate it. We read: �What does this simile signify? The
        function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
        happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
        agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
        cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
        {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
        the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
        consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
        element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
        consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
        javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
        ---------

        > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
        > bhava'nga is
        > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
        > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
        > it today. Is
        > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
        > in the
        > Abhidhamma?
        -------

        Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
        > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
        upakkilesehi
        > vippamutta.m.
        N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
        from
        oncoming defilements.
        >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
        N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
        >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
        N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
        mind.

        -------
        The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
        the word
        pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
        clear
        in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
        citta." Now
        I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
        she
        explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
        experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
        when one
        is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
        not
        experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
        experiences
        all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
        give rise
        to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
        function of
        keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
        asleep and
        also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
        uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
        experiences the
        same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
        echo of
        the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
        previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
        are no
        latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
        citta.
        It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
        arise.
        -------
        N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
        triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
        each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
        continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
        N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
        the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
        interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
        conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
        the new object.
        ----------
        > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
        > really started
        > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
        ----
        N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
        also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
        Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
        speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
        life now, instead of going into historical issues.
        I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
        not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
        There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
        no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
        citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
        cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
        ---------
        Nina.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Brett Morris
        Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative. ... From: Piya Tan To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
          Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative.




          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...>
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 7:30:31 AM
          Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

          Brett,

          You might find something useful in this article:


          Rupert Gethin,

          “Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.” In *The Buddhist Forum*,
          vol. 3 1991-1993 (Papers in honour and appreciation of Professor David
          Seyfort Ruegg’s contri­bution to Indological, Buddhist and Tibetan Studies),
          ed. Tadeusz Skorupski & Ulrich Pagel. London, School of Oriental and African
          Studies, 1994:11-35.

          With metta,

          Piya Tan

          On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Brett Morris <brettmorris73@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions
          > on
          > bhava'nga.
          > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
          > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
          >
          > 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
          > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
          > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today.
          > Is
          > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
          > Abhidhamma?
          >
          > 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really
          > started
          > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
          >
          > Many thanks and metta,
          > Brett
          >
          >
          --
          The Minding Centre
          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          Singapore 650644
          hpl: 8211 0879
          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
          Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
          Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
          [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
          [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
          [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
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        • Brett Morris
          Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions: N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
            Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions:

            N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
            are no
            latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
            citta.
            It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
            arise.
            >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency lying dormant? In
            >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate according to the
            >Abhidhamma? Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
            >pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to hell, i.e. the
            >last active mind of the previous life would be filled with torment? This is
            >getting at one of my questions, in the Suttas (and our experience) it seems that
            >there certainly are latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma
            >accounts for these.
            >


            N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
            also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
            Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
            speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
            life now, instead of going into historical issues.
            I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
            not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
            There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
            no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
            citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
            cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.

            >B: I very much appreciate this response. As far as the reality of bhavangacitta
            >yes it is very clear and as you say some such mechanism must exist to keep life
            >'going on'. I am curious as to the historical 'timeline' just to get a picture
            >of what is mentioned where. For example, as you cited, in the Pali Suttas there
            >is reference to this luminous mind. Later, this was equated with the bhavanga.
            >But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind continues from moment
            >too moment with some continuity and in states like deep dreamless sleep. In
            >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can arise at any given
            >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement continue in a
            >wholesome bhavanga. So I am not doubting bhavanga per se, nor even the
            >commentaries, but just trying to piece together how latent defilements are
            >accounted for and what the ancient commentators were concerned with accounting
            >for. For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality of daily
            >life, as it is clear that until that potential is eradicated I am in some
            >bondage yet I would like to know how these ancients dealt with it.

            much metta,
            Brett






            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 8:19:30 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

            Dear Brett,
            Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

            > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
            > questions on
            > bhava'nga.
            > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
            > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
            --------
            N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
            Series,no 10:

            Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

            There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
            not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
            when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
            citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
            arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
            Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
            translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
            keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
            goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
            bhavanga-citta.
            There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
            there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
            kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
            kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
            still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
            Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
            between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
            example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
            are different processes of citta and in between these processes
            bhavanga-cittas arise.
            When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
            cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
            cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
            impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
            still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
            dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
            sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
            not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
            earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
            function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
            In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
            Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
            explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
            arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
            moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
            mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
            sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
            smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
            function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
            happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
            agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
            cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
            {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
            the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
            consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
            element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
            consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
            javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
            ---------

            > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
            > bhava'nga is
            > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
            > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
            > it today. Is
            > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
            > in the
            > Abhidhamma?
            -------

            Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
            > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
            upakkilesehi
            > vippamutta.m.
            N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
            from
            oncoming defilements.
            >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
            N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
            >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
            N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
            mind.

            -------
            The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
            the word
            pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
            clear
            in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
            citta." Now
            I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
            she
            explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
            experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
            when one
            is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
            not
            experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
            experiences
            all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
            give rise
            to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
            function of
            keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
            asleep and
            also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
            uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
            experiences the
            same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
            echo of
            the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
            previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
            are no
            latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
            citta.
            It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
            arise.
            -------
            N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
            triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
            each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
            continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
            N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
            the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
            interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
            conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
            the new object.
            ----------
            > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
            > really started
            > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
            ----
            N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
            also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
            Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
            speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
            life now, instead of going into historical issues.
            I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
            not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
            There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
            no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
            citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
            cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
            ---------
            Nina.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
            [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
            [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
            [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
            only.Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Bryan Levman
            Dear Nina, Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava nga citta. Dear Brett, Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book Selfless
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
              Dear Nina,

              Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava"nga citta.

              Dear Brett,

              Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
              on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,


              Metta,

              Bryan





              ________________________________
              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:19:30 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

              Dear Brett,
              Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

              > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
              > questions on
              > bhava'nga.
              > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
              > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
              --------
              N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
              Series,no 10:

              Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

              There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
              not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
              when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
              citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
              arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
              Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
              translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
              keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
              goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
              bhavanga-citta.
              There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
              there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
              kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
              kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
              still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
              Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
              between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
              example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
              are different processes of citta and in between these processes
              bhavanga-cittas arise.
              When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
              cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
              cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
              impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
              still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
              dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
              sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
              not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
              earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
              function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
              In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
              Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
              explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
              arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
              moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
              mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
              sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
              smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
              function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
              happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
              agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
              cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
              {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
              the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
              consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
              element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
              consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
              javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
              ---------

              > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
              > bhava'nga is
              > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
              > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
              > it today. Is
              > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
              > in the
              > Abhidhamma?
              -------

              Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
              > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
              upakkilesehi
              > vippamutta.m.
              N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
              from
              oncoming defilements.
              >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
              N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
              >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
              N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
              mind.

              -------
              The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
              the word
              pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
              clear
              in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
              citta." Now
              I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
              she
              explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
              experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
              when one
              is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
              not
              experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
              experiences
              all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
              give rise
              to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
              function of
              keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
              asleep and
              also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
              uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
              experiences the
              same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
              echo of
              the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
              previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
              are no
              latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
              citta.
              It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
              arise.
              -------
              N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
              triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
              each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
              continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
              N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
              the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
              interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
              conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
              the new object.
              ----------
              > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
              > really started
              > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
              ----
              N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
              also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
              Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
              speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
              life now, instead of going into historical issues.
              I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
              not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
              There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
              no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
              citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
              cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
              ---------
              Nina.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Brett Morris
              Thanks Bryan, I will look at this. with metta, Brett ________________________________ From: Bryan Levman To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
                Thanks Bryan, I will look at this.

                with metta,
                Brett





                ________________________________
                From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 2:31:51 PM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                Dear Nina,

                Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava"nga citta.

                Dear Brett,

                Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
                on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

                Metta,

                Bryan

                ________________________________
                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:19:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

                Dear Brett,
                Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
                > questions on
                > bhava'nga.
                > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
                > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
                --------
                N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
                Series,no 10:

                Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

                There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
                not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
                when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
                citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
                arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
                Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
                translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
                keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
                goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
                bhavanga-citta.
                There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
                there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
                kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
                kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
                still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
                Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
                between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
                example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
                are different processes of citta and in between these processes
                bhavanga-cittas arise.
                When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
                cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
                cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
                impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
                still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
                dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
                sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
                not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
                earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
                function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
                In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
                Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
                explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
                arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
                moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
                mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
                sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
                smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
                function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
                happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
                agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
                cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
                {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
                the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
                consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
                element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
                consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
                javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
                ---------

                > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
                > bhava'nga is
                > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
                > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
                > it today. Is
                > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
                > in the
                > Abhidhamma?
                -------

                Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
                > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
                upakkilesehi
                > vippamutta.m.
                N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
                from
                oncoming defilements.
                >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
                N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
                >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
                N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
                mind.

                -------
                The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
                the word
                pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
                clear
                in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
                citta." Now
                I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
                she
                explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
                experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
                when one
                is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
                not
                experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
                experiences
                all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
                give rise
                to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
                function of
                keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
                asleep and
                also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
                uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
                experiences the
                same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
                echo of
                the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
                previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
                are no
                latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
                citta.
                It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
                arise.
                -------
                N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
                triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
                each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
                continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
                N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
                the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
                interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
                conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
                the new object.
                ----------
                > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
                > really started
                > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
                ----
                N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
                also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
                Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
                speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
                life now, instead of going into historical issues.
                I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
                not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
                There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
                no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
                citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
                cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
                ---------
                Nina.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                ------------------------------------

                - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                only.Yahoo! Groups Links

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Kumara Bhikkhu
                ... A much later book, Selfless Mind by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this. kb
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
                  Bryan Levman wrote thus at 04:31 12/10/2010:
                  >Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
                  >on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

                  A much later book, "Selfless Mind" by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this.

                  kb
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Brett, your questions are appreciated. ... N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so long as they have not been eradicated by
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
                    Dear Brett,
                    your questions are appreciated.
                    Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
                    >
                    > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
                    > lying dormant? In
                    > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
                    > according to the
                    > >Abhidhamma?
                    --------
                    N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
                    long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
                    I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

                    <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
                    by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
                    inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
                    life.
                    The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
                    accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
                    (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
                    (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
                    and ignorance (avijjaa).
                    It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
                    and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
                    not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
                    have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
                    our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
                    the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
                    people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
                    there are the appropriate conditions..>
                    Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
                    the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
                    condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
                    Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
                    lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
                    --------
                    > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
                    > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
                    > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
                    > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
                    > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
                    > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
                    > for these.
                    ------
                    N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
                    of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
                    dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
                    citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
                    akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
                    the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
                    until arahatship has been reached.
                    --------
                    B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
                    continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
                    like deep dreamless sleep. In
                    > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
                    > arise at any given
                    > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
                    > continue in a
                    > >wholesome bhavanga.
                    --------
                    N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
                    be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
                    are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
                    Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
                    merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
                    vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
                    We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
                    kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
                    the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
                    etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
                    all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
                    deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
                    we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
                    Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
                    latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
                    -------
                    > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
                    > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
                    > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
                    > ancients dealt with it.
                    ----------
                    N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
                    akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
                    to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
                    eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
                    doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
                    the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
                    -------
                    Nina.



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Brett Morris
                    Dear Nina, I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
                      Dear Nina,
                      I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have
                      some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching and
                      processing:)

                      much metta,
                      Brett





                      ________________________________
                      From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:22:00 AM
                      Subject: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                      Dear Brett,
                      your questions are appreciated.
                      Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
                      >
                      > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
                      > lying dormant? In
                      > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
                      > according to the
                      > >Abhidhamma?
                      --------
                      N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
                      long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
                      I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

                      <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
                      by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
                      inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
                      life.
                      The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
                      accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
                      (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
                      (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
                      and ignorance (avijjaa).
                      It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
                      and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
                      not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
                      have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
                      our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
                      the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
                      people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
                      there are the appropriate conditions..>
                      Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
                      the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
                      condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
                      Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
                      lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
                      --------
                      > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
                      > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
                      > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
                      > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
                      > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
                      > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
                      > for these.
                      ------
                      N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
                      of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
                      dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
                      citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
                      akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
                      the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
                      until arahatship has been reached.
                      --------
                      B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
                      continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
                      like deep dreamless sleep. In
                      > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
                      > arise at any given
                      > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
                      > continue in a
                      > >wholesome bhavanga.
                      --------
                      N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
                      be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
                      are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
                      Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
                      merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
                      vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
                      We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
                      kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
                      the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
                      etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
                      all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
                      deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
                      we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
                      Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
                      latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
                      -------
                      > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
                      > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
                      > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
                      > ancients dealt with it.
                      ----------
                      N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
                      akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
                      to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
                      eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
                      doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
                      the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
                      -------
                      Nina.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Dear Brett, ... N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just asked,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
                        Dear Brett,
                        Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                        > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                        > may have
                        > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                        > researching and
                        > processing:)
                        ------
                        N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                        Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                        asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                        vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                        vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                        People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                        moment.
                        At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                        tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                        falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                        desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                        and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                        akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                        cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                        enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                        Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                        have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                        avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                        ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                        The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                        at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                        eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                        latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                        lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                        Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                        na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                        gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                        katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                        appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                        samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                        pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                        tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                        kevala~nca
                        vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                        *******
                        Nina.






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Brett Morris
                        Dear Nina, Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome. much metta,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
                          Dear Nina,
                          Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such
                          reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome.
                          much metta,

                          Brett




                          ________________________________
                          From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 8:27:39 AM
                          Subject: Re: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                          Dear Brett,
                          Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                          > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                          > may have
                          > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                          > researching and
                          > processing:)
                          ------
                          N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                          Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                          asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                          vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                          vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                          People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                          moment.
                          At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                          tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                          falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                          desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                          and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                          akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                          cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                          enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                          Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                          have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                          avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                          ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                          The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                          at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                          eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                          latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                          lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                          Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                          na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                          gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                          katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                          appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                          samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                          pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                          tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                          kevala~nca
                          vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                          *******
                          Nina.

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