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bhava'nga - etymology -questions

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  • Brett Morris
    I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions on bhava nga. 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a nga = a constituent part of
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 10, 2010
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      I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions on
      bhava'nga.
      1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
      becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?

      2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
      mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
      commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today. Is
      this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
      Abhidhamma?

      3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really started
      developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?

      Many thanks and metta,
      Brett
    • Piya Tan
      Brett, You might find something useful in this article: Rupert Gethin, “Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.” In *The Buddhist Forum*, vol. 3
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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        Brett,

        You might find something useful in this article:


        Rupert Gethin,

        �Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.� In *The Buddhist Forum*,
        vol. 3 1991-1993 (Papers in honour and appreciation of Professor David
        Seyfort Ruegg�s contri�bution to Indological, Buddhist and Tibetan Studies),
        ed. Tadeusz Skorupski & Ulrich Pagel. London, School of Oriental and African
        Studies, 1994:11-35.

        With metta,

        Piya Tan

        On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Brett Morris <brettmorris73@...>wrote:

        >
        >
        > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions
        > on
        > bhava'nga.
        > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
        > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
        >
        > 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
        > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
        > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today.
        > Is
        > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
        > Abhidhamma?
        >
        > 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really
        > started
        > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
        >
        > Many thanks and metta,
        > Brett
        >
        >
        --
        The Minding Centre
        Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
        Singapore 650644
        hpl: 8211 0879
        Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
        Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Brett, ... N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma Series,no 10: Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta. There are moments when there
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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          Dear Brett,
          Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

          > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
          > questions on
          > bhava'nga.
          > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
          > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
          --------
          N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
          Series,no 10:

          Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

          There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
          not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
          when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
          citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
          arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
          Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
          translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
          keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
          goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
          bhavanga-citta.
          There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
          there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
          kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
          kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
          still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
          Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
          between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
          example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
          are different processes of citta and in between these processes
          bhavanga-cittas arise.
          When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
          cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
          cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
          impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
          still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pa�ca-
          dv�r�vajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
          sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
          not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
          earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
          function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
          In the �Atthasaalinii�, the commentary to the first book of the
          Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
          explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
          arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
          moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
          mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
          sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
          smelt it and ate it. We read: �What does this simile signify? The
          function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
          happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
          agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
          cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
          {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
          the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
          consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
          element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
          consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
          javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
          ---------

          > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
          > bhava'nga is
          > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
          > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
          > it today. Is
          > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
          > in the
          > Abhidhamma?
          -------

          Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
          > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
          upakkilesehi
          > vippamutta.m.
          N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
          from
          oncoming defilements.
          >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
          N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
          >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
          N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
          mind.

          -------
          The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
          the word
          pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
          clear
          in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
          citta." Now
          I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
          she
          explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
          experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
          when one
          is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
          not
          experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
          experiences
          all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
          give rise
          to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
          function of
          keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
          asleep and
          also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
          uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
          experiences the
          same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
          echo of
          the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
          previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
          are no
          latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
          citta.
          It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
          arise.
          -------
          N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
          triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
          each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
          continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
          N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
          the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
          interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
          conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
          the new object.
          ----------
          > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
          > really started
          > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
          ----
          N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
          also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
          Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
          speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
          life now, instead of going into historical issues.
          I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
          not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
          There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
          no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
          citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
          cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
          ---------
          Nina.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Brett Morris
          Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative. ... From: Piya Tan To: Pali@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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            Yes, thanks. I have this article it is very informative.




            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...>
            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 7:30:31 AM
            Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

            Brett,

            You might find something useful in this article:


            Rupert Gethin,

            “Bhavanga and Rebirth According to the Abhidharma.” In *The Buddhist Forum*,
            vol. 3 1991-1993 (Papers in honour and appreciation of Professor David
            Seyfort Ruegg’s contri­bution to Indological, Buddhist and Tibetan Studies),
            ed. Tadeusz Skorupski & Ulrich Pagel. London, School of Oriental and African
            Studies, 1994:11-35.

            With metta,

            Piya Tan

            On Mon, Oct 11, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Brett Morris <brettmorris73@...>wrote:

            >
            >
            > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few questions
            > on
            > bhava'nga.
            > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
            > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
            >
            > 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places bhava'nga is
            > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
            > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have it today.
            > Is
            > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used in the
            > Abhidhamma?
            >
            > 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory really
            > started
            > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
            >
            > Many thanks and metta,
            > Brett
            >
            >
            --
            The Minding Centre
            Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
            Singapore 650644
            hpl: 8211 0879
            Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
            Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            ------------------------------------

            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
            [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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          • Brett Morris
            Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions: N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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              Thanks Nina this is much appreciated. A couple of follow up questions:

              N: ...This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
              are no
              latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
              citta.
              It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
              arise.
              >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency lying dormant? In
              >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate according to the
              >Abhidhamma? Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
              >pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to hell, i.e. the
              >last active mind of the previous life would be filled with torment? This is
              >getting at one of my questions, in the Suttas (and our experience) it seems that
              >there certainly are latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma
              >accounts for these.
              >


              N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
              also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
              Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
              speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
              life now, instead of going into historical issues.
              I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
              not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
              There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
              no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
              citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
              cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.

              >B: I very much appreciate this response. As far as the reality of bhavangacitta
              >yes it is very clear and as you say some such mechanism must exist to keep life
              >'going on'. I am curious as to the historical 'timeline' just to get a picture
              >of what is mentioned where. For example, as you cited, in the Pali Suttas there
              >is reference to this luminous mind. Later, this was equated with the bhavanga.
              >But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind continues from moment
              >too moment with some continuity and in states like deep dreamless sleep. In
              >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can arise at any given
              >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement continue in a
              >wholesome bhavanga. So I am not doubting bhavanga per se, nor even the
              >commentaries, but just trying to piece together how latent defilements are
              >accounted for and what the ancient commentators were concerned with accounting
              >for. For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality of daily
              >life, as it is clear that until that potential is eradicated I am in some
              >bondage yet I would like to know how these ancients dealt with it.

              much metta,
              Brett






              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
              To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 8:19:30 AM
              Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

              Dear Brett,
              Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

              > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
              > questions on
              > bhava'nga.
              > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
              > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
              --------
              N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
              Series,no 10:

              Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

              There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
              not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
              when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
              citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
              arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
              Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
              translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
              keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
              goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
              bhavanga-citta.
              There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
              there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
              kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
              kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
              still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
              Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
              between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
              example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
              are different processes of citta and in between these processes
              bhavanga-cittas arise.
              When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
              cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
              cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
              impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
              still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
              dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
              sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
              not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
              earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
              function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
              In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
              Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
              explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
              arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
              moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
              mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
              sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
              smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
              function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
              happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
              agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
              cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
              {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
              the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
              consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
              element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
              consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
              javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
              ---------

              > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
              > bhava'nga is
              > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
              > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
              > it today. Is
              > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
              > in the
              > Abhidhamma?
              -------

              Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
              > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
              upakkilesehi
              > vippamutta.m.
              N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
              from
              oncoming defilements.
              >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
              N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
              >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
              N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
              mind.

              -------
              The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
              the word
              pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
              clear
              in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
              citta." Now
              I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
              she
              explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
              experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
              when one
              is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
              not
              experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
              experiences
              all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
              give rise
              to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
              function of
              keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
              asleep and
              also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
              uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
              experiences the
              same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
              echo of
              the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
              previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
              are no
              latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
              citta.
              It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
              arise.
              -------
              N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
              triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
              each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
              continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
              N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
              the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
              interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
              conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
              the new object.
              ----------
              > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
              > really started
              > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
              ----
              N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
              also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
              Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
              speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
              life now, instead of going into historical issues.
              I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
              not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
              There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
              no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
              citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
              cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
              ---------
              Nina.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



              ------------------------------------

              - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
              [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
              [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
              [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
              [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
              only.Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear Nina, Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava nga citta. Dear Brett, Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book Selfless
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
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                Dear Nina,

                Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava"nga citta.

                Dear Brett,

                Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
                on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,


                Metta,

                Bryan





                ________________________________
                From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:19:30 AM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

                Dear Brett,
                Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
                > questions on
                > bhava'nga.
                > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
                > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
                --------
                N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
                Series,no 10:

                Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

                There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
                not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
                when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
                citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
                arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
                Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
                translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
                keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
                goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
                bhavanga-citta.
                There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
                there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
                kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
                kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
                still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
                Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
                between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
                example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
                are different processes of citta and in between these processes
                bhavanga-cittas arise.
                When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
                cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
                cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
                impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
                still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
                dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
                sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
                not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
                earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
                function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
                In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
                Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
                explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
                arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
                moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
                mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
                sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
                smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
                function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
                happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
                agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
                cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
                {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
                the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
                consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
                element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
                consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
                javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
                ---------

                > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
                > bhava'nga is
                > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
                > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
                > it today. Is
                > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
                > in the
                > Abhidhamma?
                -------

                Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
                > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
                upakkilesehi
                > vippamutta.m.
                N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
                from
                oncoming defilements.
                >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
                N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
                >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
                N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
                mind.

                -------
                The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
                the word
                pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
                clear
                in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
                citta." Now
                I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
                she
                explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
                experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
                when one
                is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
                not
                experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
                experiences
                all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
                give rise
                to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
                function of
                keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
                asleep and
                also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
                uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
                experiences the
                same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
                echo of
                the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
                previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
                are no
                latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
                citta.
                It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
                arise.
                -------
                N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
                triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
                each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
                continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
                N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
                the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
                interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
                conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
                the new object.
                ----------
                > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
                > really started
                > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
                ----
                N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
                also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
                Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
                speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
                life now, instead of going into historical issues.
                I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
                not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
                There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
                no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
                citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
                cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
                ---------
                Nina.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

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                Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Brett Morris
                Thanks Bryan, I will look at this. with metta, Brett ________________________________ From: Bryan Levman To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 11, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks Bryan, I will look at this.

                  with metta,
                  Brett





                  ________________________________
                  From: Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 2:31:51 PM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                  Dear Nina,

                  Thanks very much for your excellent description of the bhava"nga citta.

                  Dear Brett,

                  Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
                  on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

                  Metta,

                  Bryan

                  ________________________________
                  From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                  To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, October 11, 2010 10:19:30 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions

                  Dear Brett,
                  Op 10-okt-2010, om 19:21 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                  > I would be interested to hear what anyone has to say about a few
                  > questions on
                  > bhava'nga.
                  > 1. The etymology seems to be bhava + a'nga = a constituent part of
                  > becoming/existence. Can anyone shed some more light on this?
                  --------
                  N: I collected some material. I wrote this in my recent Abhidhamma
                  Series,no 10:

                  Life-continuum, bhavanga-citta.

                  There are moments when there are no sense-impressions, when one does
                  not think, when there are no akusala cittas or kusala cittas. Even
                  when there are no sense-impressions and no thinking there must be
                  citta; otherwise there would be no life. The type of citta which
                  arises and falls away at those moments is called bhavanga-citta.
                  Bhavanga literally means ``factor of life''; bhavanga is usually
                  translated into English as ``life-continuum''. The bhavanga-citta
                  keeps the continuity in a lifespan, so that what we call a ``being''
                  goes on to live from moment to moment. That is the function of the
                  bhavanga-citta.
                  There are countless bhavanga-cittas arising at those moments when
                  there are no sense-impressions, no thinking, no akusala cittas or
                  kusala cittas. When we are asleep and dreaming akusala cittas and
                  kusala cittas arise, but even when we are in a dreamless sleep there
                  still has to be citta. There are bhavanga-cittas at such moments.
                  Also when we are awake countless bhavanga-cittas arise; they arise in
                  between the different processes of citta. It seems that hearing, for
                  example, can arise very shortly after seeing, but in reality there
                  are different processes of citta and in between these processes
                  bhavanga-cittas arise.
                  When an object contacts one of the five senses the stream of bhavanga-
                  cittas is interrupted and there is a sense-cognition. However, there
                  cannot be a sense-cognition immediately. When sound, for example,
                  impinges on the earsense, there is not immediately hearing. There are
                  still some bhavanga-cittas arising and falling away before the pañca-
                  dvåråvajjana-citta (five-door-adverting consciousness) adverts to the
                  sound through the ear-door and hearing arises. The bhavanga-cittas do
                  not perform the function of adverting to the sound which contacts the
                  earsense, they do not experience the sound. They have their own
                  function which is keeping the continuity in a lifespan.
                  In the ‘Atthasaalinii’, the commentary to the first book of the
                  Abhidhamma, the Dhammasangani, the parable of the Mango is given,
                  explaining a process of cittas after the stream of bhavanga has been
                  arrested. We read (Expositor II, 271, part X, no 2, Discourse on the
                  moral result of the sensuous realm) that a man went to sleep under a
                  mango-tree. A ripe mango fell down, grazing his ear. Awakened by the
                  sound he looked, stretched out his hand, took the fruit, squeezed it,
                  smelt it and ate it. We read: “What does this simile signify? The
                  function of the object striking the sentient organism. When this
                  happens there is the function of adverting by the five doors just
                  agitating the life-continuum, the function of just seeing by visual
                  cognition, of just receiving the object by the resultant mind-element
                  {N: receiving-consciousness], of just the examining of the object by
                  the resultant element of mind-cognition [N: investigating-
                  consciousness), the determining of the object by the inoperative
                  element of mind-cognition (the kiriyacitta which is determining-
                  consciousness). But verily only the apperception [N: the series of
                  javanacittas] enjoys the taste of the object.
                  ---------

                  > B: 2. As far as I understand there are only a couple of places
                  > bhava'nga is
                  > mentioned in the Abhidhamma, and it is discussed much greater in the
                  > commentaries where the 'bhava'nga theory' is developed as we have
                  > it today. Is
                  > this accurate? Does anyone have references to the places it is used
                  > in the
                  > Abhidhamma?
                  -------

                  Also In the sutta: Anguttara Nikaaya, 1. 6. 2.
                  > pabhassaramida.m bhikkhave citta.m ta~nca kho aagantukehi
                  upakkilesehi
                  > vippamutta.m.
                  N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed released
                  from
                  oncoming defilements.
                  >ta.m sutavaa ariyasaavako yathaabhuuta.m pajaanaati.
                  N: The learned noble disciple understand it as it really is.
                  >tasma sutavato ariyasaavakassa cittabhaavanaa atthiiti vadaamiiti.
                  N: Therefore I say that the learned, noble disciple has developed the
                  mind.

                  -------
                  The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using
                  the word
                  pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be
                  clear
                  in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-
                  citta." Now
                  I like to mention Acharn Sujin's "Survey of Paramattha Dhammas" where
                  she
                  explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas
                  experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that
                  when one
                  is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does
                  not
                  experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one
                  experiences
                  all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects
                  give rise
                  to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the
                  function of
                  keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast
                  asleep and
                  also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an
                  uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta
                  experiences the
                  same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an
                  echo of
                  the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the
                  previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there
                  are no
                  latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the
                  citta.
                  It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements
                  arise.
                  -------
                  N: In the Abhidhamma, in the Pa.t.thaana book, under Faultless
                  triplet, Proximity-condition (anantara-paccaya, the condition that
                  each preceding citta must condiiton the following citta): "Life-
                  continuum (bhavanga) to advertance (avajjana)."
                  N: Before there is advertance to an object that impinges on one of
                  the senses or the mind-door, the series of bhavangacittas is
                  interrupted and a process of cittas begins. The last bhavangacitta
                  conditions the first citta of a process, the citta that adverts to
                  the new object.
                  ----------
                  > B: 3. Is anyone aware of the approximate time the bhava'nga theory
                  > really started
                  > developing in the way the Theravaada tradition understands it now?
                  ----
                  N: Here we come to the issue of the ancient commentaries which have
                  also been rehearsed at the Great Councils. This is an issue apart.
                  Before, in this list, this has been debated, and I prefer rather to
                  speak about the contents of the texts and their relation to daily
                  life now, instead of going into historical issues.
                  I am disinclined to use the expression bhavanga theory, since it is
                  not theoretical. The Abhidhamma deals with realities of daily life.
                  There is bhavangacitta now, while there are no sense impressions and
                  no thinking. Still, our life goes on, there cannot be moments without
                  citta. The citta that keeps the continuity in the long series of
                  cittas we call life is named bhavangacitta.
                  ---------
                  Nina.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                  [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                  [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                  [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                  only.Yahoo! Groups Links

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kumara Bhikkhu
                  ... A much later book, Selfless Mind by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this. kb
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
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                    Bryan Levman wrote thus at 04:31 12/10/2010:
                    >Steven Collins has a whole chapter in his book "Selfless Persons" (p. 225-261)
                    >on the bhavan"ga citta which you will find very helpful,

                    A much later book, "Selfless Mind" by Peter Harvey, also has a chapter on this.

                    kb
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Brett, your questions are appreciated. ... N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so long as they have not been eradicated by
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Brett,
                      your questions are appreciated.
                      Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
                      >
                      > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
                      > lying dormant? In
                      > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
                      > according to the
                      > >Abhidhamma?
                      --------
                      N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
                      long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
                      I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

                      <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
                      by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
                      inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
                      life.
                      The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
                      accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
                      (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
                      (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
                      and ignorance (avijjaa).
                      It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
                      and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
                      not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
                      have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
                      our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
                      the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
                      people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
                      there are the appropriate conditions..>
                      Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
                      the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
                      condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
                      Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
                      lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
                      --------
                      > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
                      > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
                      > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
                      > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
                      > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
                      > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
                      > for these.
                      ------
                      N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
                      of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
                      dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
                      citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
                      akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
                      the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
                      until arahatship has been reached.
                      --------
                      B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
                      continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
                      like deep dreamless sleep. In
                      > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
                      > arise at any given
                      > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
                      > continue in a
                      > >wholesome bhavanga.
                      --------
                      N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
                      be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
                      are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
                      Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
                      merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
                      vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
                      We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
                      kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
                      the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
                      etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
                      all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
                      deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
                      we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
                      Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
                      latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
                      -------
                      > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
                      > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
                      > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
                      > ancients dealt with it.
                      ----------
                      N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
                      akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
                      to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
                      eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
                      doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
                      the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
                      -------
                      Nina.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Brett Morris
                      Dear Nina, I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching
                      Message 10 of 12 , Oct 12, 2010
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                        Dear Nina,
                        I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I may have
                        some follow up questions in this area after some time of researching and
                        processing:)

                        much metta,
                        Brett





                        ________________________________
                        From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tue, October 12, 2010 8:22:00 AM
                        Subject: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                        Dear Brett,
                        your questions are appreciated.
                        Op 11-okt-2010, om 17:12 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:
                        >
                        > >B: According to the Abhidhamma can there be a latent tendency
                        > lying dormant? In
                        > >a wholesome mind how can there be a latent tendency to hate
                        > according to the
                        > >Abhidhamma?
                        --------
                        N:Yes, all seven latent tendencies are lying dormant in each citta so
                        long as they have not been eradicated by the lokuttara magga-citta.
                        I quote from my recent Abhidhamma Series (no 23):

                        <Since each citta that arises and falls away is immediately succeeded
                        by the next citta, unwholesome and wholesome behaviour and
                        inclinations are accumulated from moment to moment and from life to
                        life.
                        The latent tendencies which are unwholesome inclinations that are
                        accumulated are the following: sense-desire (kaama-raaga), aversion
                        (pa.tigha), conceit (maana), wrong view (di.t.thi), doubt
                        (vicikicchaa), desire for becoming (continued existence, bhavaraaga),
                        and ignorance (avijjaa).
                        It is essential to have more understanding of the latent tendencies
                        and their power. They are called subtle defilements because they do
                        not arise with the akusala citta, but they are powerful. Since they
                        have not been eradicated they can strongly condition and influence
                        our behaviour. They lie dormant in the citta like microbes infesting
                        the body. So long as they have not been eradicated we are like sick
                        people, because they can condition the arising of akusala citta when
                        there are the appropriate conditions..>
                        Thus, it is explained in the Yamaka commentary (anusaya Yamaka) that
                        the anusayas, the latent tendencies, do not arise but that they can
                        condition the arising of akusala citta when there is an opportunity.
                        Thus even when the citta is kusala, there are the latent tendencies
                        lying dormant in that citta like microbes.
                        --------
                        > B:Also along the same lines is the bhava'nga citta of a hell being
                        > pure and luminous? It seems that the mind that took this being to
                        > hell, i.e. the last active mind of the previous life would be
                        > filled with torment? This is getting at one of my questions, in the
                        > Suttas (and our experience) it seems that there certainly are
                        > latent defilements, but I am not clear how the Abhidhamma accounts
                        > for these.
                        ------
                        N: This citta is akusala vipaakacitta, citta which is result. It is
                        of the same type as the rebirth-consciousness. The anusayas lie
                        dormant in each citta, also in the bhavangacitta of that being. That
                        citta is not akusala, it is vipaakacitta, it does not motivate any
                        akusala. It has no aversion. So long as we are in samsara, there are
                        the latent tendencies carried on from one moment to the next moment,
                        until arahatship has been reached.
                        --------
                        B:>But bhavanga seems to be used more to explain how the mind
                        continues from moment>to moment with some continuity and in states
                        like deep dreamless sleep. In
                        > >addition the Abhidhamma (I think) says that only one mind can
                        > arise at any given
                        > >moment and so (as my questions above) how do the latent defilement
                        > continue in a
                        > >wholesome bhavanga.
                        --------
                        N: It is right that only one citta can arise at a time. There cannot
                        be kusala citta at the same time as akusala citta. But the anusayas
                        are lying dormant in each citta, they themselves do not arise.
                        Bhavanga-citta is neither kusala citta nor akusala citta. It is
                        merely result, it can be the result of kusala kamma, thus, kusala
                        vipaaka, or of akusala kamma, thus, akusala vipaaka.
                        We are born in the human plane, thus, the rebirth-consciousness was
                        kusala vipaaka and all bhavangacittas (even arising now, in between
                        the different processes of cittas that experience colour, sound,
                        etc.) are kusala vipaakacittas. Still, so long as we are not ariyans,
                        all seven anusayas are lying dormant in each and every citta. When in
                        deep sleep there are no lobha, dosa and moha arising. When we wake up
                        we cling at once to all objects. Where does this clinging come from?
                        Not without there being conditions for it. It is conditioned by the
                        latent tendency of sensuous clinging.
                        -------
                        > B:For me this notion of a latent defilement is very much a reality
                        > of dailylife, as it is clear that until that potential is
                        > eradicated I am in somebondage yet I would like to know how these
                        > ancients dealt with it.
                        ----------
                        N: Yes, they are dangerous, it is so unpredictable what kind of
                        akusala will arise at which moment. They are tenacious, powerful. How
                        to deal with them: develop the eightfold Path leading to their
                        eradication stage by stage. The latent tendencies of wrong view and
                        doubt are eradicated first, at the first stage of enlightenment. Only
                        the arahat has eradicated all latent tendencies.
                        -------
                        Nina.

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Dear Brett, ... N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just asked,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
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                          Dear Brett,
                          Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                          > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                          > may have
                          > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                          > researching and
                          > processing:)
                          ------
                          N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                          Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                          asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                          vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                          vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                          People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                          moment.
                          At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                          tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                          falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                          desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                          and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                          akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                          cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                          enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                          Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                          have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                          avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                          ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                          The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                          at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                          eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                          latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                          lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                          Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                          na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                          gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                          katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                          appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                          samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                          pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                          tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                          kevala~nca
                          vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                          *******
                          Nina.






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                        • Brett Morris
                          Dear Nina, Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome. much metta,
                          Message 12 of 12 , Oct 13, 2010
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                            Dear Nina,
                            Again this is all much appreciated. If you want to share any other such
                            reference you come across they are, of course, most welcome.
                            much metta,

                            Brett




                            ________________________________
                            From: Nina van Gorkom <vangorko@...>
                            To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, October 13, 2010 8:27:39 AM
                            Subject: Re: Q. Re: [Pali] bhava'nga - etymology -questions


                            Dear Brett,
                            Op 12-okt-2010, om 16:39 heeft Brett Morris het volgende geschreven:

                            > I am grateful for your time and answers. It all makes good sense. I
                            > may have
                            > some follow up questions in this area after some time of
                            > researching and
                            > processing:)
                            ------
                            N: You are welcome. Just now I am studying the Pali and Thai of the
                            Yamaka commentary on the anusaya. It is interesting that you just
                            asked, how the anusayas are also lying dormant in kusala citta and
                            vipaakacitta. The text says: also in avyaakatacitta and this includes
                            vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. It is asked all the time kasmaa: why.
                            People at that time were also wondering, not only you and I at this
                            moment.
                            At the moment of akusala citta with sensuous desire, the latent
                            tendency of sensuous desire conditions its arising. Then the citta
                            falls away and the accumulation of the latent tendency of sense
                            desire continues. This cannot be said at the moment of kusala citta
                            and vipaakacitta. Then the anusayas do not condition the arising of
                            akusala at such moments. Still, they are lying dormant in these
                            cittas and this is so because they have not been eradicated yet. I
                            enjoy studying the Pali of all these texts.

                            Text: < The latent tendencies lie dormant because the defilements
                            have not been eradicated. A person endowed with kusala citta or
                            avyåkata citta is called a person with attachment, aversion and
                            ignorance, since these have not been eradicated by the maggacitta.
                            The latentent tendencies lie dormant in the case of that person, also
                            at the moment of pa.tisandhicitta , because they have not been
                            eradicated by the magga-citta. The Buddha did not merely say that the
                            latent tendencies lie dormant, but it should be understood that they
                            lie dormant because they cannot yet been eradicated. >

                            Pali: <anusayaa ca akusalacittakkha.ne uppajjanti,
                            na vipaakacittakkha.neti tasmi.m kha.ne anuppajjanato tathaa attho na
                            gahetabbo. katha.m pana gahetabboti? yathaa labbhati tathaa gahetabbo.
                            katha~nca labbhati? appahiina.t.thena. yathaa hi raagadosamohaana.m
                            appahiinattaa. kusalaabyaakatacittasama"ngii puggalo ``saraago sadoso
                            samoho''ti vuccati, eva.m maggabhaavanaaya appahiinattaa
                            pa.tisandhikkha.nepi
                            tassa tassa puggalassa te te anusayaa anusentiiti vuccanti. na
                            kevala~nca
                            vuccanti, appahiinattaa pana te anusentiyeva naamaati veditabbaa.>

                            *******
                            Nina.

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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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