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Re: [Pali] parajika

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  • Lennart Lopin
    Dear Bhante Kumaara Bhikkhu, thank you (and all the other) very much for your answers. I just wondered, whether the term asamvaso doesnt imply more than just
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 9, 2002
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      Dear Bhante Kumaara Bhikkhu, thank you (and all the other) very much for your answers. I just wondered, whether the term "asamvaso" doesnt imply more than just sanghakamma (as the commentary indeed states). It seems now, according to what you mentioned, that he really can seek pabbaja again ( i too couldnt find any reason for exclusion from pabbaja for a parajika monk). I never thought this to be true, because a parajiko is called "asakyaputtiyo" and "chinnasiiso"... I was astonished when i read Bhikkhu Nyanatilokas comment on a AN Sutta, where i read about such a re-ordination in Theravada for the first time...

      again, thanks to all your efforts ;-)

      mettaya, Lennart

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Kumaara Bhikkhu" <venkumara@...>
      To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 1:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] parajika

      > Dear Lennart,
      > I can only offer my understanding of the Theravadin stand on the matter.
      > Short answer: Yes. If he chooses to, he may be a samanera.
      > Long(-winded) answer:
      > The "sangha" in this context refers to the bhikkhusangha. In many Paatimokkha rules, we find that samaneras although having gone forth (pabbajjita) are defined as "anupasampanna" (unordained, or yet to have gone through upasampada, higher ordination, so to speak.) Also, when performing a sanghakamma (monastic formal act, only bhikkhus participate, not samaneras (except in the case of a samanera's upasampada). So, a samanera is technically not a sangha member in this sense.
      > When a bhikkhu commits a Parajika offence, even if he may still wear the robes, he immediately loses his bhikkhuhood. (No formal disrobing required.) As the conclusion of the Parajika recitation puts it:
      > Yathaa pure, tathaa pacchaa
      > Just as before, so it is afterwards.
      > Paaraajiko hoti asa.mvaaso.
      > He is defeated, not in communion.
      > This of course does not mean that if he was a samanera before he became a bhikkhu, he reverts to be a samanera. If a samanera breaks any of the first five of his ten precepts, he also loses his status and become a lay man. The parajika is a subset of the five precept.
      > Therefore, when a bhikkhu commits a Parajika offence, he becomes a lay man -- automatically, immediately, and is banned from being "in communion" with the bhikkhusangha for life. ("In communion" means doing sanghakamma together.)
      > When that happens, if he so wishes, he can asked to go forth again, as a samanera. This does happen but to my knowledge is rather uncommon. For one, it can be rather embarrassing if he were to be question as to why he is a samanera when he's old enough to be a bhikkhu. Secondly, it would be difficult to find a qualified bhikkhu would be willing to take him in.
      > Hope that answers your question, Lennart.
      > metta,
      > kumaara
      > At 02:47 AM 04-12-02, Lennart Lopin wrote:
      > >Hi @ all,
      > >
      > >Has anyone ever heard that a parajika bhikkhu is allowed to remain in the order as a samanera (as i was told recently)? Is there such a vinaya-interpretation? I thought he has to leave the sangha for good and cant rejoin (in whatever way...). Maybe one or the other of you has some better knowledge on vinaya related problems...
      > >
      > >mettaya,
      > >
      > >Lennart
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