Re: [Pali] need help translating AN 184.108.40.206 ("Paṭi cchanna Sutta")
- Dear Larry,
In the Duka Nipata of the Anguttara, the Buddha says that when studying the
Suttas, we need to identify whether the teaching is explicit (niitattha) or
implicit (neyyattha). Explicit usually means it refers directly to true
reality, such as the terms, impermanent, not self, etc. Implicit means that
the meaning has top be drawn out."
The passage you mentionis clearly an implicit, socially conditioned
statement. It refers to the situation in the Buddha's time or the time when
that particular sutta was composed.
Moreover, that statement refers to the monks and those keeping the celibacy
rule. As such, we need know botht the text and its context.
On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>wrote:
> Dear Larry,
> I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as
> ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
> The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants
> secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
> openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
> It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
> think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
> The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v.
> although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (=
> methuna or
> sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
> Hope this helps,
> From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...<larryrosenfeld%40earthlink.net>
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
> Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 220.127.116.11 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")
> I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly
> It's in AN 18.104.22.168 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
> occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the
> paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
> Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
> Katamāni tīṇi?
> Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
> Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
> Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
> Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
> (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
> http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The
> Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout,
> as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
> In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this
> (p. 88) as:
> "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What
> Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
> For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
> "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo"
> vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and
> (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven.
> inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation
> this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
> problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given
> "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
> "Women proceed in secret ..."?
> Thanks so very much for any help!
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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- Whoops -- meant to say thanks to Bryan (not "Barry"). My bad. Thanks again! - Larry
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "larryrosenfeld" <larryrosenfeld@...> wrote:
> Hi Barry,
> Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!
> With gratitude,
- Tomo - Thank you too for the very thoughtful analysis. Very intriguing. Best, Larry
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Tomoyuki Kono <tomokn@...> wrote:
> Dear all,
> I wouldn't read too much into the word mÄtugÄmo.
> One of the common meanings of Ävahati is to take as a bride. According
> to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.
> The word mÄtugÄmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
> expect the verb to be passive (Ävuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
> vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
> instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
> Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
> This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
> English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
> to her husband's place in marriage.
> My suggestion therefore is:
> "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."
> Best wishes,