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Re: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭi cchanna Sutta")

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  • Piya Tan
    Dear Larry, In the Duka Nipata of the Anguttara, the Buddha says that when studying the Suttas, we need to identify whether the teaching is explicit
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 22, 2010
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      Dear Larry,

      In the Duka Nipata of the Anguttara, the Buddha says that when studying the
      Suttas, we need to identify whether the teaching is explicit (niitattha) or
      implicit (neyyattha). Explicit usually means it refers directly to true
      reality, such as the terms, impermanent, not self, etc. Implicit means that
      the meaning has top be drawn out."

      The passage you mentionis clearly an implicit, socially conditioned
      statement. It refers to the situation in the Buddha's time or the time when
      that particular sutta was composed.

      Moreover, that statement refers to the monks and those keeping the celibacy
      rule. As such, we need know botht the text and its context.

      With metta,

      Piya


      On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>wrote:

      >
      >
      > Dear Larry,
      >
      > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as
      > "the
      > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
      > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants
      > in
      > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
      > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
      >
      > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
      >
      > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
      >
      > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v.
      > mātar),
      > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (=
      > methuna or
      > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
      >
      > Hope this helps,
      >
      > Metta,
      >
      > Bryan
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...<larryrosenfeld%40earthlink.net>
      > >
      > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
      > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")
      >
      >
      > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly
      > passage.
      > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
      > I.282-83,
      > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the
      > first
      > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
      >
      > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
      > Katamāni tīṇi?
      > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
      > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
      > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
      > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
      >
      > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
      > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The
      > Word
      > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout,
      > e.g.,
      > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
      >
      > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this
      > paragraph
      > (p. 88) as:
      >
      > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What
      > three?
      > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
      >
      > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
      > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo"
      > (e.g.,
      > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and
      > dreaded
      > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven.
      > Bodhi's
      > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation
      > of
      > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
      > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given
      > that
      > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
      >
      >
      > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
      >
      > Thanks so very much for any help!
      > Larry
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tomoyuki Kono
      Dear all, I wouldn t read too much into the word mātugāmo. One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According to Monier-Williams, vahati
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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        Dear all,

        I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.

        One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
        to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.

        The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
        expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
        vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
        instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
        Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
        This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
        English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
        to her husband's place in marriage.

        My suggestion therefore is:
        "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."

        Best wishes,
        Tomo

        On 23 Sep 2010, at 02:35, Bryan Levman wrote:

        > Dear Larry,
        >
        > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious
        > affairs) as "the
        > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
        > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their
        > chants in
        > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views
        > secretly not
        > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
        >
        > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..."
        > which I
        > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the
        > sentiment).
        >
        >
        > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s.
        > v. mātar),
        > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with
        > women" (= methuna or
        > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
        >
        > Hope this helps,
        >
        > Metta,
        >
        > Bryan
        >
        >
        >
        > ________________________________
        > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
        > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
        > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna
        > Sutta")
        >
        >
        > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly
        > gnarly passage.
        > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
        > I.282-83,
        > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta,
        > the first
        > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
        >
        > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
        > Katamāni tīṇi?
        > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
        > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no
        > vivaṭā.
        > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
        > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
        >
        > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
        > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.
        > 283 . The Word
        > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati"
        > throughout, e.g.,
        > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/
        > 15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
        >
        > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
        > this paragraph
        > (p. 88) as:
        >
        > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly.
        > What three?
        > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
        >
        > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation
        > of
        > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that
        > "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
        > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable
        > and dreaded
        > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus
        > Ven. Bodhi's
        > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious
        > connotation of
        > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though,
        > admittedly
        > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially
        > given that
        > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something
        > like:
        >
        > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
        >
        > Thanks so very much for any help!
        > Larry
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
        > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
        > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
        > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
        > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
        > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
        > or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
      • larryrosenfeld
        Hi Barry, Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated! With gratitude, Larry
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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          Hi Barry,

          Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!

          With gratitude,
          Larry

          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          >
          > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as "the
          > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
          > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants in
          > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
          > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
          >
          > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
          > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
          >
          >
          > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v. mātar),
          > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (= methuna or
          > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          >
          > Metta,
          >
          > Bryan
          >
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
          > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
          > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paá¹­icchanna Sutta")
          >
          >
          > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage.
          > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
          > occasionally entitled, "Paá¹­icchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first
          > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
          >
          > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
          > Katamāni tīṇi?
          > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
          > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
          > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
          > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
          >
          > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
          > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word
          > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g.,
          > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
          >
          > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph
          > (p. 88) as:
          >
          > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three?
          > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
          >
          > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
          > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
          > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded
          > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's
          > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of
          > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
          > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that
          > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
          >
          > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
          >
          > Thanks so very much for any help!
          > Larry
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • larryrosenfeld
          Whoops -- meant to say thanks to Bryan (not Barry ). My bad. Thanks again! - Larry
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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            Whoops -- meant to say thanks to Bryan (not "Barry"). My bad. Thanks again! - Larry

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "larryrosenfeld" <larryrosenfeld@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Barry,
            >
            > Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!
            >
            > With gratitude,
            > Larry
          • larryrosenfeld
            Tomo - Thank you too for the very thoughtful analysis. Very intriguing. Best, Larry
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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              Tomo - Thank you too for the very thoughtful analysis. Very intriguing. Best, Larry

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Tomoyuki Kono <tomokn@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear all,
              >
              > I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.
              >
              > One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
              > to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.
              >
              > The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
              > expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
              > vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
              > instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
              > Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
              > This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
              > English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
              > to her husband's place in marriage.
              >
              > My suggestion therefore is:
              > "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."
              >
              > Best wishes,
              > Tomo
            • Bryan Levman
              Dear Tomo, Good suggestion. I looked up the commentary which says vahanti = niyyanti (passive of nayati or neti, being led ), a meaning which goes well with
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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                Dear Tomo,

                Good suggestion. I looked up the commentary which says vahanti = niyyanti
                (passive of nayati or neti, 'being led"), a meaning which goes well with your
                suggestion,

                Best, Bryan






                ________________________________
                From: Tomoyuki Kono <tomokn@...>
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 6:06:17 AM
                Subject: Re: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")


                Dear all,

                I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.

                One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
                to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.

                The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
                expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
                vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
                instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
                Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
                This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
                English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
                to her husband's place in marriage.

                My suggestion therefore is:
                "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."

                Best wishes,
                Tomo

                On 23 Sep 2010, at 02:35, Bryan Levman wrote:

                > Dear Larry,
                >
                > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious
                > affairs) as "the
                > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
                > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their
                > chants in
                > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views
                > secretly not
                > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
                >
                > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..."
                > which I
                > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the
                > sentiment).
                >
                >
                > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s.
                > v. mātar),
                > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with
                > women" (= methuna or
                > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
                >
                > Hope this helps,
                >
                > Metta,
                >
                > Bryan
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
                > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
                > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna
                > Sutta")
                >
                >
                > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly
                > gnarly passage.
                > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
                > I.282-83,
                > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta,
                > the first
                > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
                >
                > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
                > Katamāni tīṇi?
                > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
                > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no
                > vivaṭā.
                > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
                > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
                >
                > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
                > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.
                > 283 . The Word
                > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati"
                > throughout, e.g.,
                > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/
                > 15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
                >
                > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
                > this paragraph
                > (p. 88) as:
                >
                > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly.
                > What three?
                > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
                >
                > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation
                > of
                > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that
                > "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
                > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable
                > and dreaded
                > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus
                > Ven. Bodhi's
                > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious
                > connotation of
                > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though,
                > admittedly
                > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially
                > given that
                > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something
                > like:
                >
                > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
                >
                > Thanks so very much for any help!
                > Larry
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                > Paa.li-Parisaa - The Pali Collective
                > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                > [Pali Document Framework] http://www.tipitaka.net/forge/pdf/
                > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
                > or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >






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