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need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paá¹­icchanna Sutta")

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  • larryrosenfeld
    I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage. It s in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 21, 2010
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      I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage. It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83, occasionally entitled, "Paá¹­icchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first paragraph consisting of these six sentences:

      Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
      Katamāni tīṇi?
      Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
      Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
      Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
      Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.

      (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g., as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)

      In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph (p. 88) as:

      "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three? Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."

      For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g., vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:

      "Women proceed in secret ..."?

      Thanks so very much for any help!
      Larry
    • Bryan Levman
      Dear Larry, I don t think it means so much affairs with women (licentious affairs) as the ways of women which is how E. M. Hare translates it: The ways of
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 22, 2010
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        Dear Larry,

        I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as "the
        ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
        The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants in
        secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
        openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).

        It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
        think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).


        The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v. mātar),
        although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (= methuna or
        sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.

        Hope this helps,

        Metta,

        Bryan



        ________________________________
        From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
        To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
        Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")


        I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage.
        It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
        occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first
        paragraph consisting of these six sentences:

        Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
        Katamāni tīṇi?
        Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
        Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
        Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
        Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.

        (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word
        Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g.,
        as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)

        In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph
        (p. 88) as:

        "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three?
        Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."

        For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
        "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
        vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded
        (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's
        inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of
        this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
        problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that
        "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:

        "Women proceed in secret ..."?

        Thanks so very much for any help!
        Larry






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Larry, In the Duka Nipata of the Anguttara, the Buddha says that when studying the Suttas, we need to identify whether the teaching is explicit
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 22, 2010
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          Dear Larry,

          In the Duka Nipata of the Anguttara, the Buddha says that when studying the
          Suttas, we need to identify whether the teaching is explicit (niitattha) or
          implicit (neyyattha). Explicit usually means it refers directly to true
          reality, such as the terms, impermanent, not self, etc. Implicit means that
          the meaning has top be drawn out."

          The passage you mentionis clearly an implicit, socially conditioned
          statement. It refers to the situation in the Buddha's time or the time when
          that particular sutta was composed.

          Moreover, that statement refers to the monks and those keeping the celibacy
          rule. As such, we need know botht the text and its context.

          With metta,

          Piya


          On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 9:35 AM, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...>wrote:

          >
          >
          > Dear Larry,
          >
          > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as
          > "the
          > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
          > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants
          > in
          > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
          > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
          >
          > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
          >
          > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
          >
          > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v.
          > mātar),
          > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (=
          > methuna or
          > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
          >
          > Hope this helps,
          >
          > Metta,
          >
          > Bryan
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...<larryrosenfeld%40earthlink.net>
          > >
          > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
          > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")
          >
          >
          > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly
          > passage.
          > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
          > I.282-83,
          > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the
          > first
          > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
          >
          > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
          > Katamāni tīṇi?
          > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
          > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
          > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
          > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
          >
          > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
          > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The
          > Word
          > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout,
          > e.g.,
          > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
          >
          > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this
          > paragraph
          > (p. 88) as:
          >
          > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What
          > three?
          > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
          >
          > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
          > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo"
          > (e.g.,
          > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and
          > dreaded
          > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven.
          > Bodhi's
          > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation
          > of
          > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
          > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given
          > that
          > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
          >
          >
          > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
          >
          > Thanks so very much for any help!
          > Larry
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >



          --
          The Minding Centre
          Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
          Singapore 650644
          hpl: 8211 0879
          Meditation courses & therapy: http://themindingcentre.org
          Sutta translation: https://dharmafarer.org


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tomoyuki Kono
          Dear all, I wouldn t read too much into the word mātugāmo. One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According to Monier-Williams, vahati
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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            Dear all,

            I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.

            One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
            to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.

            The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
            expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
            vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
            instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
            Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
            This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
            English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
            to her husband's place in marriage.

            My suggestion therefore is:
            "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."

            Best wishes,
            Tomo

            On 23 Sep 2010, at 02:35, Bryan Levman wrote:

            > Dear Larry,
            >
            > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious
            > affairs) as "the
            > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
            > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their
            > chants in
            > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views
            > secretly not
            > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
            >
            > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..."
            > which I
            > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the
            > sentiment).
            >
            >
            > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s.
            > v. mātar),
            > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with
            > women" (= methuna or
            > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
            >
            > Hope this helps,
            >
            > Metta,
            >
            > Bryan
            >
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
            > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
            > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna
            > Sutta")
            >
            >
            > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly
            > gnarly passage.
            > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
            > I.282-83,
            > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta,
            > the first
            > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
            >
            > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
            > Katamāni tīṇi?
            > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
            > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no
            > vivaṭā.
            > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
            > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
            >
            > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
            > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.
            > 283 . The Word
            > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati"
            > throughout, e.g.,
            > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/
            > 15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
            >
            > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
            > this paragraph
            > (p. 88) as:
            >
            > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly.
            > What three?
            > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
            >
            > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation
            > of
            > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that
            > "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
            > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable
            > and dreaded
            > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus
            > Ven. Bodhi's
            > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious
            > connotation of
            > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though,
            > admittedly
            > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially
            > given that
            > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something
            > like:
            >
            > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
            >
            > Thanks so very much for any help!
            > Larry
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
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            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
            > or web only.Yahoo! Groups Links
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            >
          • larryrosenfeld
            Hi Barry, Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated! With gratitude, Larry
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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              Hi Barry,

              Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!

              With gratitude,
              Larry

              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Larry,
              >
              > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious affairs) as "the
              > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
              > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their chants in
              > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views secretly not
              > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
              >
              > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..." which I
              > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the sentiment).
              >
              >
              > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s. v. mātar),
              > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with women" (= methuna or
              > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
              >
              > Hope this helps,
              >
              > Metta,
              >
              > Bryan
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
              > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
              > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paá¹­icchanna Sutta")
              >
              >
              > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly gnarly passage.
              > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS I.282-83,
              > occasionally entitled, "Paá¹­icchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta, the first
              > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
              >
              > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
              > Katamāni tīṇi?
              > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
              > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no vivaṭā.
              > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
              > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
              >
              > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
              > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.283 . The Word
              > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati" throughout, e.g.,
              > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
              >
              > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates this paragraph
              > (p. 88) as:
              >
              > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly. What three?
              > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
              >
              > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation of
              > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
              > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable and dreaded
              > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus Ven. Bodhi's
              > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious connotation of
              > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though, admittedly
              > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially given that
              > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something like:
              >
              > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
              >
              > Thanks so very much for any help!
              > Larry
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • larryrosenfeld
              Whoops -- meant to say thanks to Bryan (not Barry ). My bad. Thanks again! - Larry
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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                Whoops -- meant to say thanks to Bryan (not "Barry"). My bad. Thanks again! - Larry

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "larryrosenfeld" <larryrosenfeld@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Barry,
                >
                > Thank you so much for sharing you knowledge and wisdom! Very helpful and much appreciated!
                >
                > With gratitude,
                > Larry
              • larryrosenfeld
                Tomo - Thank you too for the very thoughtful analysis. Very intriguing. Best, Larry
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tomo - Thank you too for the very thoughtful analysis. Very intriguing. Best, Larry

                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Tomoyuki Kono <tomokn@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear all,
                  >
                  > I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.
                  >
                  > One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
                  > to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.
                  >
                  > The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
                  > expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
                  > vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
                  > instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
                  > Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
                  > This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
                  > English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
                  > to her husband's place in marriage.
                  >
                  > My suggestion therefore is:
                  > "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Tomo
                • Bryan Levman
                  Dear Tomo, Good suggestion. I looked up the commentary which says vahanti = niyyanti (passive of nayati or neti, being led ), a meaning which goes well with
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 23, 2010
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                    Dear Tomo,

                    Good suggestion. I looked up the commentary which says vahanti = niyyanti
                    (passive of nayati or neti, 'being led"), a meaning which goes well with your
                    suggestion,

                    Best, Bryan






                    ________________________________
                    From: Tomoyuki Kono <tomokn@...>
                    To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, September 23, 2010 6:06:17 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna Sutta")


                    Dear all,

                    I wouldn't read too much into the word mātugāmo.

                    One of the common meanings of āvahati is to take as a bride. According
                    to Monier-Williams, vahati also has that meaning.

                    The word mātugāmo has the nominative ending and one would normally
                    expect the verb to be passive (āvuyhati) but clearly it isn't here. So
                    vahati here must be intransitive, meaning "to ride, go by or in (with
                    instr. of the vehicle); be borne or carried away" (See Monier-
                    Williams). PED also lists the intransitive sense, "to proceed", etc.
                    This could be translated with a passive sentence in colloquial
                    English. At any rate the reference must still be to how a woman is led
                    to her husband's place in marriage.

                    My suggestion therefore is:
                    "A bride is taken [to the groom's house] concealed, not revealed."

                    Best wishes,
                    Tomo

                    On 23 Sep 2010, at 02:35, Bryan Levman wrote:

                    > Dear Larry,
                    >
                    > I don't think it means so much "affairs with women" (licentious
                    > affairs) as "the
                    > ways of women" which is how E. M. Hare translates it:
                    > The ways of womenfolk are secret, not open. Brāhmins practise their
                    > chants in
                    > secret, not openly. Those of perverse views hold their views
                    > secretly not
                    > openly. (The Book of the Gradual Sayings, Vol 1, page 261).
                    >
                    > It could also just be translated as "Women are secret, not open..."
                    > which I
                    > think is equally valid (the translation only of course, not the
                    > sentiment).
                    >
                    >
                    > The phrase mātugāma itself just means "womenfolk" per the PED (s.
                    > v. mātar),
                    > although it does seem to have an overtone of "dealings with
                    > women" (= methuna or
                    > sex) per PED s.v. gāma-dhamma.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps,
                    >
                    > Metta,
                    >
                    > Bryan
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    > From: larryrosenfeld <larryrosenfeld@...>
                    > To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Tue, September 21, 2010 10:58:18 AM
                    > Subject: [Pali] need help translating AN 3.3.3.9 ("Paṭicchanna
                    > Sutta")
                    >
                    >
                    > I was hoping someone could help translate a brief but seemingly
                    > gnarly passage.
                    > It's in AN 3.3.3.9 (SLTP 3.129; CSCD and World Tipitika 3.132?; PTS
                    > I.282-83,
                    > occasionally entitled, "Paṭicchanna Sutta"), a two-paragraph sutta,
                    > the first
                    > paragraph consisting of these six sentences:
                    >
                    > Tīṇimāni bhikkhave paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
                    > Katamāni tīṇi?
                    > Mātugāmo bhikkhave paṭicchanno vahati no vivaṭo.
                    > Brāhmaṇānaṃ bhikkhave mantā paṭicchannā vahanti no
                    > vivaṭā.
                    > Micchādiṭṭhi bhikkhave paṭicchannā vahati no vivaṭā.
                    > Imāni kho bhikkhave tīṇi paṭicchannāni vahanti no vivaṭāni.
                    >
                    > (This is from the SLTP, e.g., at
                    > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sltp/AN_I_utf8.html#pts.
                    > 283 . The Word
                    > Tipitaka redaction substitutes the verb "āvahati" for "vahati"
                    > throughout, e.g.,
                    > as seen at http://studies.worldtipitaka.org/tipitaka/
                    > 15A3/3/3.3/3.3.9 .)
                    >
                    > In "In the Buddha's Words" (2005), Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi translates
                    > this paragraph
                    > (p. 88) as:
                    >
                    > "These three things, monks, are conducted in secret, not openly.
                    > What three?
                    > Affairs with women, the mantras of the brahmins, and wrong view."
                    >
                    > For me, the biggest translation question is Ven. Bodhi's translation
                    > of
                    > "mātugāmo" as "affairs of women." While I can appreciate that
                    > "mātugāmo" (e.g.,
                    > vs. "itthiyo") has the implication of a woman who is both desirable
                    > and dreaded
                    > (e.g., as used in DN 16, MN 66, MN 67, Iti. 4.10, Ja 436), and thus
                    > Ven. Bodhi's
                    > inclusion of the phrase "affairs with" captures the licentious
                    > connotation of
                    > this Pali word. But might not a more straight forward (though,
                    > admittedly
                    > problematically patriarchal) translation of this be -- especially
                    > given that
                    > "mātugāmo" is in the nominative (vs. accusative) form -- something
                    > like:
                    >
                    > "Women proceed in secret ..."?
                    >
                    > Thanks so very much for any help!
                    > Larry
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
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